[Music] Hi everyone, welcome to the next episode
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from the Lessons from the Playroom podcast. Hi everyone. I have two uh powerhouses uh with me today. Uh both
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who have put together a significant contribution to understanding
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dissociation. And so uh they are going to unpack
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uh their journey on creating the handbook of complex trauma and
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dissociation in children uh which is a new volume that has just been released.
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If you don’t know who I’m talking about yet um I have with me the fabulous Anna
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Gomez and the fabulous Jill Hosy. Um and uh and we’re just going to get into it.
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So I’m going to share a little bit more about these two powerhouses and then we are going to delve into the world of
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dissociation. So everyone they are both internationally recognized experts in
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complex trauma dissociation and intergenerational trauma with a shared focus on healing across the lifespan.
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Anna is the founder and director of the um AA institute in in Phoenix, Arizona.
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She’s a psychotherapist, author, international speaker who’s trained thousands of clinicians worldwide, a
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fellow of the international society for the study of trauma and dissociation. She’s a leading authority in EMDR
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therapy and the author of EMDR therapy and adjunct approaches with children EMDR sandbased therapy which is coming
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out Anna when’s it coming out? August 13th. Oh no, later this year amazing. Um
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her work has earned multiple awards including the Francine Shapiro award uh from Amria. Jill is a registered social
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worker and psychotherapist in Toronto, Canada and Rhode Island USA specializing
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in trauma therapy across the lifespan. An em anria approved consultant and
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trainer with the AGA Institute faculty uh with the ISSTD. She’s known for her
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work integrating the safe and sound protocol into EMDR therapy. She’s also
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extensively trained in the SEID D for assessing dissociative disorders.
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Ladies, that’s a mouthful for both of you. Uh together they are the co-editors and contributing authors of the handbook
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for complex trauma and dissociation in children which we are going to get into.
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Thank you so much both of you for taking the time uh to talk to me, but more
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importantly, thank you for the number of hours. I don’t think
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people probably really can understand and appreciate your for those of you that can’t see them right now. They’re
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both laughing as I just said that the number of hours that it took to put this
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book together. So, I just want to welcome you both and thank you both. So
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hello as you say this yes my my body is responding to it I have to share
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something quite funny. Um so I was looking at my email and looking for Jill
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and somehow this window popped up saying you have shared 6,400 emails within the
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last three and a half almost four years. So I just want you to, you know, that
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will give you a perspective. You know, we should get like frequent flyer miles or something for the number of emails
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because yeah, the level of communication and the level of work is it was
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incredible though. It’s an incredible It was an incredible journey. Yeah. Jill,
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anything you want to add to that? Oh, agreed. It it the level of coordination, communication, working together. It was
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an incredible experience. hard work, incredible experience and journey. Yeah. So, we’re gonna dive into content, but
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uh before we do, so for those of you that can actually see, I’m holding up the book. You’ll see it’s huge. For
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those of you that are listening from just on audio, um Jill, will you share how many pages is this book that I’m
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holding and how many contributing authors are there to this volume of work? So, there’s 96 pages. 900. Yeah.
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And over 60 contributors that wrote chapters in diads, in triads, and in
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groups. So over 60. Yeah. So let’s just even uh dive in a little bit. Um why is
Why is this book so significant
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this particular book so significant? Like why is it the first of its kind?
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Let’s just start there. Jill, go for it. Okay. So this book
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brings together um various aspects of working with children and dissociation
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and complex trauma that oftent times you see separated. So in one place you often times don’t see um theory. So it’s it’s
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pulling together theory, aspects of research, symptoms, how we understand and approach assessment, and then
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translate that into case conceptualization, different treatment modalities, and
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different treatment modalities that look at the mind and the body. So it’s it’s spanning all of these different areas of
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child work as well as bringing in different aspects uh or different issues or things that may arise in the work.
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And so for me, I think it’s really special because a it brings together what we often find as very disjointed or
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dissociated um into one place where you can go and look for it. And it brings
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together a variety of different experts in the field together collaborating. So
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bringing their work and joining them in some way, integrating it in some way.
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And you know, we have a handful of texts that focus on dissociation in children
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specifically. We don’t have that much. And this is a new release um that’s come
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out that is hoping to reinvigorate the field. Yeah, absolutely. Anna, do you
Why is dissociation so important
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want to say a little bit more about why the why the topic and why it so important that um this has come
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together? Absolutely. So, first and foremost, I think this is a population that we’ve
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dedicated a lifetime. Um, we’ve been in the trenches really working with very
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complex clinical presentations and children exposed to developmental trauma, complex trauma, and of course,
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they present with dissociation. But this is a topic that has been abandoned really by our field and not fully
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recognized. So um a lot of the kids with more severe clinical presentations have
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a hard time finding clinicians with the expertise and the knowledge of to
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support them. So this is a a community that is the group of children that are highly marginalized and we have to
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really um acknowledge the marginalization of of this
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population. When you look at academia and when we look at graduate programs,
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they don’t address severe traumatization and dissociation. So there is a lack of
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acknowledgment and recognition of the importance of addressing this and
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supporting the children that suffer the most and and have clinicians that are
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well prepared and well trained to deliver a treatment that can support the
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healing. So complex trauma, dissociation in and you know developmental trauma, we
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can treat that. We can support the healing of these children, but our clinicians need to know how to and we
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need to move into a a an era of a greater recognition that it exists and
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that we can treat it. Because right now what we have is a misdiagnosis of a lot
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of the symptoms associated with dissociation and um disproportionately these children
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are um given a lot of psychotropic medication because people just don’t
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know what it is. So let’s give them medication. So I think we have to do better and I think that part of writing
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this and co-editing this book was about that. That was a shared um goal and
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vision that this could become a milestone in the field and that can
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bring greater awareness and understanding of how to support the
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healing of these children. Yeah. Well, and I I love Jill what you were saying that in some ways the book, the way you
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approached it is integrating the dissociative
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theories or the the fragmentations of knowledge that exist in the field. And
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this was actually an attempt at bringing them together and and integrating thought into into one place which is so
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much also part of way to write a book that embodies the treatment.
How do you conceptualize dissociation
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That’s so great. So, I know that you both um have so much knowledge in your
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backgrounds around this topic already and I’m curious of two things. One is I
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know that dissociation isn’t viewed in the exact same way by everyone. So, I
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would love to hear how you think about dissociation or how you conceptualize it. And then I would also love to hear
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something that you learned putting this together that was actually either new or
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helped you think about dissociation in a little bit of a different way. So let’s start with um how do you personally tend
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to conceptualize dissociation and Joe let’s start with you. So for myself I start with from the
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stance of okay so dissociation is about some semblance of detachment and
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disconnection and then I hold inside that the ways in which the human mind
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and body can disconnect or detach. In fact there’s multiple different ways
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that we can do this. We can talk about dissociation as a process of disengaging from the present. We can also talk about
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it as the ways in which the mind becomes structured and oriented or as a way of
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managing and coping. And so when I think about dissociation, I start with okay,
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disconnection, detachment, and now here’s this unique child or human in
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front of me. And how can I understand the ways in which their mind and their
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body uses this incredible superpower? Um, I try really hard to not bring the
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concept or the theory to the client and figure out what am I hearing, what am I
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seeing, what are others reporting, what’s being captured, and then I can go
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out and say, okay, so is there a model or a theory that may help me think about this a little bit differently? But I
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start from the place of disconnection and detachment and then lean in to figure out what does that even mean for
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this unique being and go from there. Yeah, that’s beautiful.
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Yeah. How do you think about it? So, so one of the things that I appreciate about this volume is the
Shared reverence for dissociation
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shared reverence for the association which we um don’t see it from a
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pathizing perspective but as I was we together were editing the book I
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couldn’t help it. There were moments where I was in tears and I will text uh
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Jill and said, you know, I’m really moved right now and emotional to see so
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many different authors that have years of experience and that they have
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dedicated years to supporting the healing of these children. And so the
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share reverence for dissociation, not as a pathological response, but instead is
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is a brilliant um capacity of the embodied human mind to adapt to severe
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traumatization, to adapt to impoverished relational
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environments and to attain some level of homeostasis, right? And um to really sit
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down with the brilliance of a child that not as a deficit but as a brilliant
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strategy and capacity to adjust to pain and suffering and not only to adjust to
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the suffering emerging from their relational ecosystem but to coexist with
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the inner legacies of trauma. Um so that sheer reverence really touched me deeply
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to think that this is the very best attempt of this child to survive that
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that that for me really stood up throughout the process. So certainly we
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there are so many definitions there are so many terms from poly traumatization to developmental trauma complex trauma
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dissociation um and the field is not necessarily
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unified but as Jill said yes it it hints into disengagement detachment and in
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severe traumatization the compartmentalization of the mind the division of identity and it makes sense
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I was sitting here editing, sitting for a minute minute and reflecting upon that
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and wondering my goodness um how brilliant it is that it’s easier to coexist with a compartmentalized
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autobiographical memory and life story than to live with it as a whole because
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of how painful that is. because these children quite often are abused and hurt
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and wounded within that sacred parent child relationship and interpersonal
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important interpersonal relationship. So I think for me and this is what really stands out.
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So, as you were editing these 60 chapters,
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uh, uh, what was there something or a particular I don’t know,
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I could only imagine that as you’re hearing different perspectives that your your own thinking expanded along the
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way, even though you already had such a strong foundation,
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what were some of those pieces that you read or that you that the putting the
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book together really I don’t know just took you into a another realm of
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appreciation or understanding. So for me as I was going through
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everything I was struck by the multiple pathways that we can get to this place
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of using dissociative coping. Um, I think sometimes,
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and I think this is regular, we can sort of get stuck in one way of thinking and one way of conceptualizing and
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understanding things. And as I was reading and editing the chapters,
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it really what stood out for me and I gained a deeper understanding of are these different pathways through
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attachment. The thing the aspects that we actually don’t talk about. So the quieter, more invisible forms of trauma
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as a pathway to developing dissociative coping, the ways in which the body and
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the nervous system is involved, the ways in which the mind it just it expanded my
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way of thinking about it and brought many confusing moments of trying to take
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a moment and gather myself and and really understand what I was reading. But what I walked away from was
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this coping me, this strategy, this way of managing the intolerable, this way of
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turning away from what we have no other way of managing or coping with, particularly as children.
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Um, and all the different ways that we get there. And that stood out for me and
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has transformed my practice. It’s expanded my thinking. When I show up and I’m working with someone, it’s I’m now
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stopping and and thinking, okay, hold on. I now know there’s multiple different ways of getting to the same
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place. What am I missing? I think that’s so beautiful because I do I think that we hear trauma and trauma
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can or sorry, dissociation, but dissociation connected to this seemingly
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huge massive, you know, thing. And uh and you’re you’re not not to say that
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these sort of smaller you said unspoken traumas aren’t also big and massive, but
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we don’t tend to talk about it in that way and that there are many I’m loving
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what you’re saying that there’s many things that can be um that can register as traumatic that can lead to the
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outcome of dissociation. and it doesn’t have to be this big big event that you
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know we tend to focus on in the field. So thank you Jill for highlighting that
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Anna what about you? Well, so many things I have a curious active mind, but
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some of the things that were coming up for me. So, one is a new perspective of
Diversity in the field
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um dissociation not as something that we need to eliminate.
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It’s about understanding because it’s really the very best attempt of the
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child to accommodate to severe traumatization to chronic
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exposure to trauma during sensitive especially sensitive periods of
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development. and um to truly understand what’s underneath that this is the best
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uh way of coping and and being part of that relationship and preserving the
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relationship and being with that caregiver because again the survival depends upon that relationship. Um the
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other piece that really came for me was to see the diversity that exist in our
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field. This book really represents u kind of a baseline of where we are.
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And it was incredible to see the advancements the all the work of this
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shared wisdom and the work that many of the contributors have put. I mean for
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many of them is a lifong um dedication. I mean they’ve dedicated
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their lives to exploring complex trauma dissociation and working with this
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population. So for me it was to see right in front of my eyes unfolding
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where we are really where we are and to be proud of what we as a collective have
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accomplished. On the other hand though, it was an opportunity for me and now for
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the field to see where we need where are the gaps, right? Where are the places
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where we need to do better because these children are still out there, you know,
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going to school um in our neighborhoods and residential treatment facilities and
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they may not be receiving the care that they deserve. and the movement of
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traumainformed care really lacks the understanding of complex and
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developmental trauma and dissociation. So I think this book also creates that
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baseline for us to see okay there is work that needs to be done in every
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single area from assessment to treatment
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to you know how do we work systemically or individually. So there’s still a lot
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of work to do. I remember uh one of the conversations Anna that you and I had
What is the self
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with respect to my chapter because we were talking about um uh similar language Jill that you
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used around sort of detaching or moving away from the self. And I remember that
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even prompted a conversation of well what is that? What is the self? like we’re talking about dissociation from
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something, but the field hasn’t even figured out what this thing is that we’re moving away from or at least
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they’re not in agreement about how we would, you know, describe it or talk about it. And I found that to be super
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fascinating, just going off of Anna, what you’re saying of like, yes, like we’re still in this place of formulating
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our understanding about these dynamics that exist within us and dynamics that
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exist in the mind and and and all of that. I found that to be deeply riching
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uh just as as a contributing author to go oh right even like there are things
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we understand and there are things that we still don’t understand that we’re making assumptions and guesses right and guesses about totally totally and
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sometimes there is not awareness of self so it’s not returning to self because
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there’s no awareness of identity or who am I um I can’t tell you how many of my
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clients of I mean across development and across the lifespan where they said to
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me like what self I I don’t know it feels like this is an empty hole and
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when you say self I don’t know what that is totally totally totally I think uh
Biggest misconceptions
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well I think we’re it’s highlighting the complexity right the complexity of the whole of the whole dynamic
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um so as you were well you’ve this is
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published You’ve both learned a lot in this journey. Your thinking about dissociation has expanded. What do you
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think are some of the biggest either misunderstandings
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or biggest things that you really wish clinicians that work with kids really
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understood about the dissociative process? I’ve already heard a couple, which is that it’s it’s adaptive and
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that it’s not pathological. And so we need to shift our paradigm away away from that. Uh but what like what else?
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What’s what’s a big what what do you what do you what do you
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hope does that make sense? Absolutely. For me um to two two responses. So the first
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part is to not make the assumption that we can see dissociation as it emerges in
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any space or place. That these are a series of internal experiences unique to
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this person. And yeah, we can see behaviors. There are certain things that we can see that can be cues, indicators
23:57
of suspicion, but we actually can’t see the totality of dissociation. And so
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that then brings me to the second part. Have to ask. We have to ask. Um so many of our
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children, you know, even teens and adults, this is how they experience their
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internal world. This is how they experience things. It’s what’s normative to them. So not only can we not assume
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that we can see it and that it’s overt, but that someone is a child is going to
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report it. We need to ask the question. We need to bring it into the space. I
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can’t tell you how many times I’ve had a child or an adolescent say to me, “No
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one has ever asked me this question.” And and once we show up and ask, then we
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can start to learn about what their experience is, if dissociation is a way of coping, and what it actually means
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for them. and we can then we get a window in to their own internal subjective experience. So can’t assume
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we can see it that we need to ask. I imagine Jill that there’s at least one
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listener right now that’s thinking okay what’s the question? What’s that question that I need to ask?
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And I would say instead of it being any one question, it’s about um utilizing a
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process and this is in the book when you look at the screening and assessment where we pull together a history where
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the clinician pulls together their clinical observations and then includes um different informal and formal tools.
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So this may be formal screening measures. This may also be the use of
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books and cards and it’s ways of asking a um is this something that you’ve
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experienced? Is this true or not true for you? Not leading but instead opening
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the door for the child to be able to connect, become curious, and share the information.
Finding a therapist
26:02
Yeah. And to add to what you’re saying, Jill, um I believe it takes about three
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to 15 years for a client to finally find a therapist that begins to ask these
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questions and that understands the association and then ask, “Have you ever
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experienced this?” Uh what do you do? What does the mind do? What do you do when uh you’re going through turmoil or
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what where does the mind go when things don’t go well? So when you ask some of
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them will respond. Some of them of course they have been stigmatized or rejected or even punished by talking
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about the voices they hear in sight for example or their symptoms associated
26:52
with dissociation. So is asking and then how do we ask how do we contextualize it
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and how we create a safe environment how we create
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cocreate safety moment to moment so we create the space and we we work on that
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you know creating safety in the interubjective field so the the child
27:17
adolescent uh can feel safe speaking about it I’m going to use an analogy that that came from a client. So, a
27:25
client said to me, you know, in in some of my therapeutic sessions in other places, I felt like the wind was so
27:33
strong that I had to hold on to my jacket even more. Um, but then I’m
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experiencing now the sun. The sun is out. It’s nice and warm. So, now I can
27:45
take my jacket off. And so clients, a lot of clients exposed to complex
27:50
traumatization, they come with very strong systems of self-p protection.
27:56
And of course, that’s what we experience first, the soldiers, the squad team, the protection. And when we begin to honor
28:03
everything the child has done for survival and we sit with them in that
28:10
moment of you know co-creating relational safety then we can explore
28:15
right what’s happening underneath with compassion with attunement with
28:21
reciprocity in in co-regulation and then we can support the the mind the
28:29
embodiment mind of the child to really say okay here here I am this is me right
28:35
and and through this repetitive experiences with the other then we can
28:42
provide corrective experiences for this child
28:47
as you both are speaking I am I’m aware that many clinicians in our field
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uh express fear about what happens when the dissociative
29:04
parts emerge in the therapy session or
29:10
how to work with I know that the the handbook is to support the understanding
29:16
and and how to work with why do you think it’s so challenging for therapists
29:21
or why do you think it lands as such a scary thing for therapists to think about I’m in a session and my client’s
29:29
in dissociative protective response or their dissociative parts and patterns have
29:35
emerged in the room. Why do you think that’s so scary for clinicians?
29:42
I want to I want to reflect a little bit on my my own journey and myself and what happened for me and the fear that I felt
29:51
as I was working with children and this emerged in the space and
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we never talked about this in my training. you know, I I left graduate
30:03
school and didn’t feel wholly prepared at all to be going into the field and went out and sought clinical training
30:08
and there was a little bit of discussion about trauma, but there wasn’t a lot of discussion about complex or
30:14
developmental trauma. There was no discussion about dissociation. And so when it emerged, it was almost like the
30:20
first time that I was experiencing it. And for me, I then reacted to that through my own lens and my own
30:27
experience, freezing and not knowing what to do and going to this place of feeling myself inadequate, not knowing
30:35
what to do as a therapist. And so, you know, I think if we were able to start
30:41
having these discussions earlier on and speaking about the incredible ways in which the mind can protect, create
30:48
distance, and can function. I think that people may not have the same experiences
30:56
when it emerges in the space be because it becomes a consideration. This may be how my client has learned to cope and
31:03
how their mind has organized things. And then when I think about, you know, why
31:08
don’t we hear about this? I think that we inherently still live in a society where it still feels very difficult to
31:16
talk about how dissociation comes to be. I think it’s still hard to have discussions about child maltreatment. We
31:23
talk about if we have to talk about dissociation, we have to talk about where it comes from. And I think we
31:28
still struggle with that. And I believe there’s hope. And that’s part of what the book brings. But
31:36
I I think, you know, when it emerges, it can become quite jarring. And
31:42
we just didn’t expect it and never learned about it.
Fear of the unknown
31:47
I I was thinking um that like you said Jill, I think that lack of understanding
31:55
of what is dissociation, the roots and the heart and the essence of complex
32:00
trauma creates some fear of the unknown. What do I do? This feels it seems weird.
32:06
And of course, Hollywood made, you know, didn’t make it easy for us because of
32:13
course it um made it quite pathological and crazy and weird and uh the fear of
32:21
the unknown. The thing about therapy though is that a place where we live the
32:27
Yes. The more the landscape. Yes. More we embrace the unknown with reverence,
32:34
right? and knowing that it’s okay to be there. Um, so um, psychotherapists
32:40
sometimes believe that therapy is delivering this room. We always know what to do. And I I think no matter how
32:47
many years you’ve been doing therapy, you’re going to tap into the unknown.
32:52
And the belief that psychotherapy is this neat and nice process without turbulence I would say is naive because
33:02
psychotherapy is messy as it is our human experience. We can’t expect
33:09
orderly processes as we deliver treatment. So um I would say it is
33:15
important that we don’t fear the association but it’s important that we respect it and honor it right because in
33:22
the field sometimes we see two extremes one whereas you know it’s very nuanced
33:29
by fear don’t go there be careful don’t work if with this child if the child is
33:35
dissociative or don’t use certain therapeutic approaches and the other extreme is ah you go for it you you
33:42
know, uh, just jump in, go for trauma work. And I don’t think I mean that
33:49
neither of the two extremes really support children in healing. I think that we need to get acquainted,
33:57
understand it, learn about it, feel comfortable with it, and also comfortable with the unknown. And
34:04
second, honor it and respect it as well. So we take our time to truly understand
34:11
how this child has been internally structured by the environment. We
34:17
understand um the child as a you know we understand
34:24
the cognitive the emotional the somatic the behavioral elements that emerge
34:29
moment to moment and and then I think we all have the
34:35
we have the um an important job which is we need to
34:43
read about it. We need to go to trainings. we need to get consultation. That’s how most of us jumped into this
34:51
field. Um I remember I had a client, it was actually an adult where I had no one
34:58
to refer to and I didn’t know how to work with dissociation. So at that point
35:04
I said to myself, okay, you need to go get consultation, get training, read and
35:10
understand it so you can support the healing of this client. And I think this
35:16
is one of my advices to the field. I think it’s time that we all take ownership. We take responsibility
35:23
and and and began the process of change in this paradigm that is not about fear
35:29
and dissociation, but it’s not also about just jump in and don’t be afraid
35:34
of it. We have to honor and respect it as well. Yeah. Beautiful. I want to um
Call to action
35:41
name a piece that I observe and I would love you both if you want to add to it or say something different or however uh
35:50
I I think that there’s also a call to action too for therapists around
35:55
recognizing that complex trauma is activating and that it’s actually really
36:01
normal for a therapist to feel their own inner activation when these topics come
36:08
up in the room or when they’re interacting with um you know these parts within our within our clients. And that
36:15
that that’s that it’s a it’s just a call to action on our own responsibility of
36:20
our own internal our own internal system and our own and our own work. But just
36:26
to normalize like it can be activating. It can bring up our own complex trauma histories. uh it
36:34
can it can trigger our own dissociative patterns. You know, let’s let’s be
36:39
honest, therapists might also have the same patterns, have similar
36:44
patterns, have their own way of that they’ve learned how to be safe in this world and and that uh so I think this is
36:51
honoring of the client and also honoring of the therapist too. Like this book might actually be about the therapist
36:56
too. Lisa, I want to thank you for saying that because one of the things that I
37:02
learned not just about this idea of dissociation in write in as we were writing and editing, but I actually
37:09
began to learn more about myself as a child. And it was it was a whole another
37:16
level of experience for me to be able to turn towards understand different ways
37:22
of being myself as a child and understanding myself in the room with my clients. Now when things happen inside
37:29
of me, when I have an urge to move towards, to pull away from, when I get
37:35
scared, when I move into my own coping strategies that move me right out of connection in the space um so I think
37:42
that that’s really really important to name that it’s not just about the clients we work with, it’s it’s also
37:48
about us as human beings and in every chapter especially in the
The therapeutic relationship
37:54
the section of approaches different therapeutic approaches. That’s one of
38:00
the things that I notice across the board is that there is greater recognition but there still there’s
38:07
space for additional work greater recognition of the person of the therapist and that in this therapeutic
38:15
encounter there is an incredible possibility of there is a field of
38:20
possibilities for healing and that in that relational ecosystem with the
38:25
therapist then healing whatever approach you use is possible. And I think Jill,
38:31
you wrote an incredibly amazing chapter on the therapeutic relationship. And
38:38
again, throughout multiple chapters, we all address the importance of
38:44
co-creating relational safety, providing
38:49
uh relational, you know, corrective experiences. And that begins with ourselves, you know, the connection to
38:57
our own nervous system to notice and and Lisa, I know you teach extensively about
39:02
this, but noticing how the child is giving us information and data by what
39:11
we feel in the nervous system, right? By what’s emerging for us. And certainly
39:17
the more we recognize how humanity exists in each of us and that we may
39:23
have all the knowledge, we still need that empty space that is there to
39:30
receive moment to moment the data and the information that is emerging from
39:36
the embodied mind of the child that we have in front of us. That’s very very rich uh data you know. So being that you
39:44
know human in front of the child that we’re working with. Yeah. So beautiful.
39:50
Um I would love to let everyone know where they can get this book. So who
39:57
would who would like to share where where individuals can go and get this book? So this book can be purchased if you go
Where to buy
40:04
online. You can find it through the publishers’s website which is through Rutwich. Um you can also find it on
40:10
Amazon. And in doing a quick search, I’ve noticed it’s on a variety of different bookstores as well. So for
40:16
folks in Canada, you can also get it at Cversham Book Sellers, which is both on-site um and online and is readily
40:24
available at different bookstores online. Beautiful. Um, I truly believe
40:31
that this is just one of those books that is uh just necessary for clinicians
40:38
to have uh in their and I say collection, but when I say collection,
40:44
we know that we collect books and we don’t read them. That’s not what this book is. This is not one of those books
40:49
that you collect because it looks nice and pretty and you put it on the shelf. This book is filled with so much uh so
40:56
much wisdom, so much knowledge, and it’s just one of those books that I think is important that clinicians return to time
41:04
and time again. There may be a piece that feels relevant in one moment and then relevant the next moment and re
41:10
because it’s just it’s so the the depth and breadth that you cover is just it’s
41:15
just so beautiful. Um, I want to thank both of you again for shedding light on
41:21
a topic that needs attention, for pushing the understanding and pushing
41:28
our field forward for the understanding around complex trauma dissociation, for
41:35
being an advocate for the kids and families uh where this is their lived uh
41:41
lived experience. you’ve um you’ve you’ve created something quite quite
41:47
significant for for clinicians and for children and families. I just want to thank you both.
41:55
Thanks, Lisa. Thanks for creating this space for us for having this conversation because this is all a part
42:02
of moving our field forward and you you
42:07
are someone that is right there in the middle in the trenches supporting the
42:12
healing of our children advocating for them being the voice of many of our kids
42:18
that don’t have a voice in our system. So, I appreciate very much your
42:23
invitation and to be here with Jill. It’s just a treat.
42:29
Couldn’t say it better myself. Thank you so much, Lisa, for having us um and allowing us to share and be together in
42:35
the space. Yeah, beautiful. Beautiful. So listeners wherever uh you are in the
42:41
world as you are with us in this discussion may I remind you that you are
42:48
important you are significant you are the most important toy in the
42:54
playroom. Take care of yourself. Um, and until next time.
