[Music] Hi listeners, welcome back to the next
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episode from the Lessons from the Playroom podcast. I have with me a returning guest. Not
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only is this individual a massive um influencer in our field particularly in
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the world of EMDR and soon to be EMDR Sandray based therapy which is what
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we’re going to be talking about um but she’s also influencer in complex trauma
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and dissociation. She also happens to be a very dear friend of mine and I love her dearly. I am talking about um the
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worldrenowned Anna Gomez. Anna, thank you so much for joining, for coming back
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and saying hello. And we’re going to be jumping in and talking about your new book that just uh just got released,
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which is EMDR Sandra based therapy, healing complex trauma and dissociation
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across the lifespan. So, thank you so much for coming back and joining,
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Lisa. Thank you for inviting me. What a treat to be invited twice. No, this is
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my third time, by the way. This is my third time. Yes. I feel quite honored, by the way.
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Well, what I love and I’m going to read your bio in a minute, but I was thinking about the the the three podcast episodes
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that we have. The first one was on EMDR. The second one was you and Jill Hosy
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around dissociation. And now we’re combining both of those in the culmination of your new book,
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Bringing in Sand Tree. So, it just like such a beautiful progression of three of
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your favorite things that you love to educate on that you love to talk about.
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So, that just felt kind of special as I was reviewing what we’ve covered in the different podcasts. So, that’s pretty
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cool. Yeah, it represents a journey. It does represent a journey. Um, I would love for those individuals that are not
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familiar with you, I would love to share a little bit about your bio and then let’s jump into conversation about EMDR
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and Sand Trey work. So, Anna Gomez is a leading expert in the field of complex
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trauma dissociation and intergenerational trauma with a particular focus on children and
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adolescence. She’s the founder and director of the AIA Institute in Phoenix, Arizona. Psychotherapist,
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author, and international speaker. She’s trained thousands of clinicians worldwide through workshops and keynote
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presentations. My guess is many of our listeners have actually attended your trainings or listened to you at some
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time. Anna, a recognized authority in EMDR therapy. She’s a fellow of the
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international society of the study of trauma and dissociation and the author
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of EMDR therapy and adjunct approaches with children. Her most recent publication which we’re going to talk
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talk about MDR san based therapy healing complex trauma and dissociation across
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lifespan is now available. She is the co-editor of the handbook of complex trauma and dissociation in children.
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She’s written multiple book chapters on EMDR therapy complex trauma and intergenerational trauma. She has been
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recognized by many many organizations. Um, some of for her her big recognized
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awards are the Francine Shapiro Award from MRIA, the Hope Award from Sierra
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Tucson, and the Distinguished Service Award from the Arizona Play Therapy Association. And I’ll just um give you a
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great friend award uh on top of that. So, I’m going to get a
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There we go. I’ll send you I’ll send you the whatever I’m going to send you, but the great award. Good. I look forward to receiving that
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for sure. So, thank you, Anna, so much.
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Well, thanks for having me here. I very much appreciate to be invited three times. Yes.
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An honor. Yeah. Well, so you actually said it best that you’ve been on a journey
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and you’ve been on a journey really exploring EMDR, uh, dissociation, complex trauma, and
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sand. And I want to hear a little bit about again maybe a little bit about your
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journey with the three but more specifically when did you begin to recognize the
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significance of combining the three? Yeah. So this has been a journey
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about self-discovery. Yeah. I think in the process of coming
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back to myself, I have explored so many different
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avenues and one of those is becoming a therapist
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and then finding the approach that really was in my heart that I could
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believe in because you have to believe in what you do, right? And I found
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symbols. I fell in love with symbols very early in my life. What’s interesting is that I was in love with
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symbols and I didn’t know I was because it happened so implicitly. So when I was
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a teenager, I love dreams and I I still do and I listened to my dreams since so
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early in my life and I had a journal where I would I
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would write about my dreams and I love the symbols. Not until I really became a therapist, I
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was conscious I became conscious of that love for symbols. So it was my first
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language and it still is. Then it reached my cognitive mind where
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now I could say, “Oh, I like symbols and this is why I didn’t for many many
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years.” And that’s the beauty of and and the wonderful thing about working with symbols that I have continued to embrace
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in in my clinical work. So I was working
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with clients of all ages and I was attending trainings on Santre but I’m
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talking about I mean 30 years ago 28 years ago I remember Gil for example I
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went to some of the trainings that she did here in Arizona and I just fell in
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love with it was love at first sight is it was not even at first sight it was
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almost a recognition got recognition of, oh, this is me and
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this is what I want to be doing. And then I was trained in in EMDR therapy.
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And when what what inspired me really to integrate the two was that for many of
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my clients, they couldn’t really verbalize what they were experiencing, their thoughts, their memories. They
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could not verbalize and use verbal language, especially when they were
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physiologically activated. So you can be physiologically activated and verbally inhibited. And we also know that trauma
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often exists in fragments of sensory information that cannot be translated
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into words. And if the only channel that we have for communication and the
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therapeutic process is language, verbal language, then we’re really reducing the
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the pathways that clients have to tell their life stories. and and beyond that
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to be able to connect to their life stories and to be able to connect to self and that’s where it became more
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conscious for me that the union of the two could be incredibly powerful. So I
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started to put them together and the first few sessions I were buy I was
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biting my nails because I didn’t know how to do it. So I’m just trying this or
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that. And I started to see children, adolescence and adults
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having insight and stagnation, therapeutic stagnation
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move into you know kind of awakening insight realizations recognitions
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acknowledgements those aha moments. So I was quite inspired by those early
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experiences and then I moved forward to continue to put them together
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and now it’s 25 years later and here I am. It’s a recognition of the
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limitations of verbal language. Yeah, absolutely. What do you find? I
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mean, I know you’re talking about how um the sand tray work almost allows another
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form of communication in the processing. If you had to like what’s the what’s the
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like the the unique thing? What’s that unique component when you bring both of them together? Because there might be
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people that are trained in both but haven’t considered bringing them together. Other than maybe more uh I don’t know if
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you’d say faster. I don’t know I don’t know if that’s true or not or a different kind of insight but like
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what is what’s unique about the combination of the two? So both approaches of their own are
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quite powerful. They have robust um research and
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scientific support. But in my experience, when you bring them together, it’s like you potentiate them
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and you see the gifts that Santra brings,
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united with the gifts that EMDR brings. And now what we have is
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sometimes more rapid certainly but also what we see is a is a door a pathway a
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portal really into the mind that opens up so clearly because the symbol
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provides distance to the mind to be able to explore itself. The sandray becomes a
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vortex where possibilities can come in where anything can happen. a mirror of
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the mind. And now you have EMDR therapy, procedial stud, but also the dual
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attention stimulus that can potentiate the the integrative uh forces of the
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mind. Yeah. Yeah. I know your your book because I have it in here. So for those of you that can
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visually see me, it’s in my hand. I’m holding it up on the holding it up on I have it too. You have it, too. your your book is
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filled with um case studies and different examples. Is there one that you could share with
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us that feels I don’t know just feels interesting as we’re going through this conversation that could highlight some
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of what we’re talking about? Yeah, so many come to mind right now.
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And and when I was writing the book, I wanted to make it very digestible
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so people could actually use it. they could read the book and hopefully take
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some trainings, but go back to their playrooms, their office, uh, and actually do it. One of the first
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children that I used DMDR combined with Santree was one of one of those children
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where the a child that other therapists had given up on
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him already. They it was the difficult child, the
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aggressive child that they couldn’t put up with. Those were the reports that I
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received. And the case manager came to me as a last option. Can you help me? So
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I said, well, let’s give it a try. And this is a child that will not
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verbalize anything. And certainly children usually tell their stories
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through reenactments, through play, not through well constructed verbal
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narratives. So he was playing and in humility I stayed right there
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with him, walk by their by his side.
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He would not really verbalize anything, not even what was happening. and he will
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play with a lizard and Mr. Lizard was a perpetrator. Mr. Lizard will um would
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you know kill, abuse, you name it.
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One day I decided to jump in and after
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significant work associated with preparation with building supporting the child and
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building capacities but also working with the system. It was in foster care
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working with the foster parents. Then we we we really built a good safety net
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with co- regulation with reciprocity with a lot of the things that he needed. But he was not able to receive them. He
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was just so close. But my entry point was Mr. Lizard
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because he developed a relationship with this character.
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So I figure, you know, I’m just going to jump in and see what happens. And that was one of the first processing sessions
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with Mr. Lizard because what we do in EMDR Santay is that we’re going to work
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with the symbols. doesn’t the self does not have to be yet owned or recognized
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is Mr. Lizard and his killing and Mr. Lizard is angry and what’s making Mr.
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Lizard so angry someone kill his family and he had been moved into foster care
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so symbolically what he’s telling me in terms of Mr.
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Lizard’s family has been killed. That was this his perception of I lost my
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family completely. So we started to process Mr. the the issues with Mr. Lizard killings left and right occurred
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in the sand tray and also the dollhouse. Anna, did he actually choose a symbol of
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a lizard that was brought into the Exactly. Yes. The lizard was there.
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The people that Mr. lizard was killing the other animals and I stay in
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curiosity not judgment stay with him and continue to add the dual attention
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stimulus process that as a memory even though there is no personification.
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There is no ownership of this is me or this is my pain or this is my rage or this is my anger or this is my
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internalized perpetrator because he witnessed a lot of um violence
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and then we started to notice week every week a shift. So the foster parents were
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reporting back that now he’s opening to receiving some level of connection,
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having a relationship, he’s starting to play. So within two months he made it to
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the honor role because he was learning, he was studying, he was following
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through with the teachers directions. So that’s where I started to realize, okay, something is happening here. let me let
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me do it with more and more and more uh clients. And I started to see the same
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response especially with children because that was the the channel that
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was most appropriate for their age. They their development, their capacities and
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that and in in the sand tray then the child through sufficient distance can
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access what otherwise will be utterly overwhelming. Yeah. and information that they cannot
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put together because they exist in fragments of sensory data that they
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cannot translate into words and so the memory is right there even though the
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child is not owning this as oh this is me or this is my anger. So that level of
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distance really um gives a refuge to the mind. Dantree the
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the characters become avatars of the mind and through this avatars the child
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the adolescent the adult can express can
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come face to face with information that otherwise will be overwhelming or the
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acknowledgment of particles of self that are not yet recognized. Yeah.
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So, the symbol then becomes a bridge between implicit memory and explicit
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knowing. So, there’s two things that caught my attention about that story. One is this
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piece. So, he he chose this symbol and the symbol um as a perpetrator. But I
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love that you didn’t identify who it was, where this came from, even
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whether or not he identified as the perpetrator himself, whether he had internalized, right, some of that. So
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that it’s almost like the symbol got to hold the whole picture
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whatever part wherever his mind wanted to go, that symbol could be a holder of
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that of that energy. I think that’s that’s beautiful. I think there’s many um clinicians that might be inclined to
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want to identify or label or um even be cautious about going there if they felt
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like, oh, that is a symbol that’s representing some part of themsel that
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they’re identifying with, but oh, that’s a scary sort of negative sort of association. And I love the
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open-endedness. Do you want to say something more about that? Yeah, I mean the the um symbol the character itself
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is a storykeeper. It’s a story holder and it holds the story
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as the mind is ready for. So as a witness the child and the therapist we
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witness it in the way that the mind is ready to witness it. And for now I can
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only witness this as a lizard that is a killer. And the mind is not yet ready
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for that level of recognition and acknowledgement as this is my father
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right and that’s the refuge that sent and the symbols provide to the mind
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and also the avatars give the mind the possibility for completions.
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Yeah. So through the avatar, the child can experience an act of triumph, a
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completion of a fight or flight response. The child can have attachment completions where a need is fulfilled.
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Now you have a little zebra that was abandoned and didn’t have a mom and a dad. But now in the sand tray, there is
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a mom and a dad ready to give the love to that zebra. And even though it’s not
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necessarily happening for the child themselves, it’s happening to the
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character, the character is giving the nervous system of the child the
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opportunity to experience that connection, the reciprocity, the
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protection, the safety, the shared coherence because they enter the wei
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space. the zebra and the mother zebra and the child experiences that
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correction and repair through the symbol. Um I I love that because you
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know one of my understandings in the of the mind and the brain is that the mind can’t tell the difference between real
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and imagined. And so as it’s happening in real time it is happening to the
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child. There is an actual repairerative internalized experience because the
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because it is and I think there’s a lot of clinicians that go well but didn’t didn’t really happen. Well, no, it is it
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is happening because the mind can’t tell the difference. Yeah. That this is an offering of the
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character, the avatar. Yeah. The offering to the nervous system is an offering to the mind that can find and
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and access this um completions. Yeah. Through the avatar. Now what what I have
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observed through the the last 25 years is that very organically
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this experiences began to penetrate through the walls that were created for
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survival and eventually organically the child begins to move this information
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from implicit into explicit. And one day for example this child came in and said
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I’m done with Mr. lizard. And then he started to create new sand worlds where
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he had people, not me, not mine, not self yet, but started to get closer and
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closer to his own story. Now he was playing out with people and then the
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people were in reenacting a lot of what this child experienced. And then the day
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came when he started to talk about his own feelings and then suddenly he
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remember the experiences of trauma. So it’s a return to self is also a a way of
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reorganizing their relationship with their life stories. But the the
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wonderful thing about this union is that it happens when the client’s embodied
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mind is ready to witness it, is ready to realize, is ready to recognize and
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acknowledgement and acknowledge and witness the story, not before.
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Right? There’s no pushing to go at my own rhythm, but we go with the agenda of
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the client as the mind begins to get closer and closer and closer to their
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life stories. Well, it’s a a beautiful honoring of if we’re talking about even dissociation
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and complex trauma, the protective parts and the protective patterns that have come in. And it sounds like the sand
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tray and the symbols are really um a helpful process for the protector
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parts and you’re not going in and bulldozing over them. That there’s
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almost a befriending and an allowing. So there’s an unfolding and and going at
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the the child’s um uh pace. Would that be a way of saying it?
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Yes. because this symbol um is gentle to the mind and passes
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systems of self-p protection that were created in the service of protection.
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Yeah. And when we try so hard to go against the systems of self-p protection, the defenses become stronger
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with the symbol, then they bypass and work more gently with those systems of
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self-p protection and defense. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. So, my other question has to do with in
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your story, you were weaving in EMDR as it was unfolding. Do you always do it that way?
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So I often do when I put them both together. Yes. Because again they
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potentiate each other. They both have gifts for each other. So the the Santra
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provides the distance. The Santre provides the the refuge to the mind, the
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mirror to the mind. And EMDR therapy with its procedural steps also
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potentiates the process to access memory to access identity. I am convinced that
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EMDR therapy is not just about memory integration but is integration of
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identity and by the way integration as defined by the client promotes also a
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restructuring of the relationship with the client’s life story. and a
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reorganization of the relationship with self. So they both work well together.
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However, I do not believe in rigidity or robotic
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use of any form of therapy. And if a child doesn’t seem to be open to
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procedural types of EMDR therapy, which is rare now because we have so many ways
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of so many pathways with dual attention stimulas where we involve movement and
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marching and dancing and using noodles where you know you brought this into the
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field. Children are very much open to to engage
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in in dual attention stimulus because now we have learned more creative ways
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of delivering EMDR. Yeah. So it can be fun. See if EMDR is not fun, they’re not going to go for it.
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But if there is a client that says, “I just want to do Santree, who am I to
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forest upon themselves a therapeutic approach that does not feel congruent
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with where they are, who they are?” There are clients, for example, that may do adults. They start with EMDR and then
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if we’re kind of hitting a wall or moving into stagnation,
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I may invite them to join in in the sand tray, for example.
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And some of them just organically began with EMDR, then move into EMDR Santay.
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And sometimes adults come in and say, “I want to do EMDR sand today or today I
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think I want to do straightforward EMDR.” That’s how some of my adult clients call it. So, it’s not my agenda.
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Let’s look into what you need in this moment to be able to find or go where
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you need to go. So, here’s a nuanced question for individuals that are trained in both
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because I imagine some might be wondering this. My guess is some people are trained um rather than so in the
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sand tray, you know, creating a scene and then having a static scene and then
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doing EMDR on the static scene versus in the tray, the play is in motion
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and EMDR is applied while it’s happening and there isn’t a pause per se,
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something static. than for integration. Do you do both just based on whatever
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intuitively is happening? Does that make sense just as an application question for people that are trained in both?
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Yeah. So with there are some children for example that they’re constantly
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moving the figures, the story is unfolding. I can still find that window
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where um providing the dual attention stimulus and sometimes we do have a pause and then we pause and we breathe
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and then keep they keep moving and uh you see the sand moving around and
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figure jumping up and down. And then you have children or adolescents or adults
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that they have that pause that the unfolding story is not in constant
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movement as it is for example with younger children. So we adjust, we
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adapt, we join in in flexibility, curiosity and joining in with the style
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of the client that we have in front of us. So one of the things that I have advocated for is to
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not bring the child to the therapeutic process but instead we bring the
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therapeutic process and approach whether it’s EMDR Santre or both to that
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individual child that we have in front of us. Yeah. So beautiful. um
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question around like I mean my hope is that um twofold therapists that are
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already trained in EMDR are going to go buy this book right away. Therapists that are curious about this will do both
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that they’ll get curious about some EMDR training and they’ll go jump into the the book as well.
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Why did you write this? like what are you hoping clinicians fundamentally get
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out of this book? I mean, you already said this this book isn’t just theory and there’s a lot of application. It’s
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very approachable. Um, you want it to be a a userfriendly resource, which it is,
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but what like what are you really hoping this book does?
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I hope that this book becomes another portal. I I do believe that there are multiple portals through which we can
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find integration and healing. Yeah. And I hope that this book becomes one of
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those portals and possibilities. The human mind is incredibly complex and and
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our existence is messy. And so we we need to have different entry roads into
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the embodied mind of the client. And I hope that this becomes another road,
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another possibility that clients and clinicians can join in
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and find healing. Some people certainly do sand alone and they do really well
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and they go to the places where they need to go. Some do EMDR, standard EMDR
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and is very effective and efficient for them. But not all of us can access those
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roads. There’s not one road and one road only. but instead there are multiple
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pathways into ourselves uh into our life stories and into that field of
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consciousness and awareness. So I hope that this becomes a portal and a road
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that is available for the ones that cannot find that that entry road into
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themselves. That’s that’s so that’s so beautiful. um
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this approach that you’re talking about, this combined approach, can you speak to whether it’s really just for an
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individual or can you also do this in like group settings or
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Yeah. Could you speak to that a little bit too? Yeah, this is a very unique feature of
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this book as well because it presents many possibilities. I didn’t when I
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wrote this book, I wanted this to be flexible. I wanted this to offer a
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portal with multiple possibilities and pathways. So the EMDR entray can be used
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individually of course but in this book I very very much advocate for a systemic
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approach especially with children where we address intergenerational trauma and
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wounds that are passed from generation to generation. And I really advocate for
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not holding just the child accountable when what we have in front of us is a
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generational wound that has been passed over and over and over again and now the child is holding that generational
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wound. So systemic systemic work and in uh group work for example. So I present
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some of the protocols that we use in EMDR therapy and how they can be adapted
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using the Santra that can be incredibly enriching and a combination of all. I
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have families for example where the child is receiving EMDR Santra
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individually. The parent is also attending some level of group work and
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if after the group work where they work on psycho education developing
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capacities relational capacities co-regulatory capacities
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and then they can do some processing in the sand tray using EMDR as a group and
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they can process moments of activation with their children. If we reduce those moments of activation that move the plan
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C cl the parent out of co-regulation and out of connection and keep the client in
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that place of reciprocity and co-regulation without having to move into survival and self-preservation then
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we reduce the activation through EMDR cent based group protocols and for
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parents that need additional processing and integration and they want to do
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individual work, they can do individual work. But then the other part that I think is quite potent and beautiful is
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that we can use this group approach also with families. So you have the child,
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you have the parents, the siblings and they all have their own sand trays and they do beautiful work combining the
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two. Yeah. when you do work with um like a parent child diad,
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do you put them both assuming that there is um readiness to do so?
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Do you put them in the same tray or do you often have like you said two separate trays?
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How do you when it comes to to combining both EMDR and sand tray? It depends on
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where we are and where the clients are. If we are utilizing the Sandray and
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Santray procedures and strategies in initial phases of treatment with the
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goal in mind and the purpose of gathering data and information and understanding their relational
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choreographies, then we do join uh trace to understand how they relate to each
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other, who takes the lead, who controls. So much can be observed in the
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development of a joined uh tray. When we go into process then though the
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child then is doing their own work and
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the parent is there to accompany them. So the parent becomes a very active
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therapeutic partner that joins in as a companion for the child when the child
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is processing stories and the parent also can deliver strategies that in EMDR
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we call interweavves and those interweavves are delivered by the parent
35:49
guided by the clinician. So, for example, if you have a little zebra, little kitty that was abandoned, and
35:56
that little kitty is alone and sad, I can ask, “I wonder what the little zebra
36:03
needs right now.” Well, the little zebra wishes that she had a mommy and a daddy
36:10
that could sing a song, for example. So, then I wonder I wonder if we can invite
36:16
mom or who would you like? Let’s check with the zebra. Ask the zebra, who does
36:22
the zebra want to have, you know, sing a song. And so then, you know, we have
36:27
little musical instruments or little music musical box. And there is mom with the musical box or singing Twinkle,
36:35
Twinkle, Little Star. And sometimes the child might say, I want uh the zebra wants all of us to sing. So we all sing
36:43
Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star. Well, I’m using bilateral stimulation. and we breathe in and go, “Well, I wonder what
36:49
happened to the zebra.” So, it’s focused on the character, though. There are times where we go from character to self
36:56
and wonder as you watch the zebra, how is this for you? We never um break the
37:05
beauty of symbol or metaphor. We don’t say, “Oh, that’s you.” No, we stay with the zebra. The little zebra didn’t have
37:12
a song, so we’re singing a song together. Attachment completion. So now
37:17
the parent can sing a lullabi, can rock the little zebra. How does the zebra
37:24
feel? Oh, zebra feels happy and safe. Oh, let’s watch little zebra. Right. So
37:31
through that zebra, the nurturance that that the zebra is receiving, that is
37:37
also an offering to the child’s nervous system. Yeah. Yeah. So so beautiful. And even all these
37:45
examples, I mean, it is I love what you’re saying. It’s not rigid. It’s flexible. It’s
37:50
adaptive. It’s based on the needs of the child or the family in the moment. And
37:57
um and there isn’t a right way to do it is what I’m hearing. There are there are sort of protocols to keep in mind. There
38:04
are processes to keep in mind. There are approaches to keep in mind. But that it really is based on what’s needed in the
38:11
moment. And as we say in MDR, go with that
38:16
and the capacity of the the therapist to mentalize to hold the child’s in mind
38:23
and deliver you know the the interweavves or provide the companionship that the character needs.
38:30
And sometimes kids may say uh by the way that zebra it’s me. Oh okay. So how do
38:37
you want me to call the zebra from now on? Well, call it um Johnny the Zebra.
38:44
Okay. So, let’s check with Johnny the Zebra and see what what the zebra needs
38:50
or wants. Right. Are so great. Yeah. Or or the other thing that is so
38:55
amazing with dissociative clients is that often dissociative parts or ego
39:02
states unlend.
39:07
And for example, you have a perpetrator imitating part that shows up to kill.
39:14
And later on they say, well, that is actually a voice that I hear in my mind.
39:20
But first they find safety in the sand tray. Yeah. Right. To come out, to be witnessed, to
39:27
be known at the pace that the client’s mind can tolerate.
39:33
Yeah. Yeah. It’s I mean so beautiful. It’s like that part of me gets to exist,
39:38
too. I can acknowledge that that part of me, but but I need still feel safe enough to do
39:43
so. Yeah. But I can acknowledge it when I’m ready for that. Exactly.
39:48
When my mind is ready to acknowledge it and recognize it and sometimes it’s a gradual entrance into consciousness. We
39:56
honor that rhythm through which information enters consciousness. And
40:02
sometimes it enters consciousness through the symbol and stays there as a
40:08
symbol as a zebra that was abandoned. And one day the child might say, “Well, that’s me and that’s my mommy.” Okay?
40:15
You know, we honor that. We honor the natural rhythms of the mind and what the
40:21
mind needs in the process of healing, the process of seeing, knowing, recognizing, and naming. Right?
40:31
So, Anna, where can people find your book? Well, I’m excited to say that this um
40:38
August, I believe 11 or 12th, it’s going to be available everywhere
40:45
really where you buy your favorite books that you can find them. Barnes & Nobles,
40:51
Amazon, everywhere will be will be available. So, I’m excited that this is
40:56
going to happen within just a few days. Yes. And for those that want to um learn
41:03
more about your trainings, because you travel the globe, you do trainings, you
41:08
also do online trainings, you even do intensive trainings um for EMDR training
41:15
um in Arizona where you are. So if people are just interested in learning with you, where can they find
41:22
you? Well, they can find me somewhere in the universe.
41:29
Can I add the energy? But uh you can find me also through the web. So I have
41:35
two websites www. agate a g a t e institute.org
41:46
and we have uh multiple trainings that we offer but is one there’s one that is
41:52
specifically dedicated to EMDR Santre. So there is a part one, part two, it’s a
41:58
total of 90 hours because we go deep into possibilities. There’s so much that can be done. And then um my website
42:07
www.aggomez.org. Amazing. Well, Anna, thank you for once
42:15
again just bringing yourself and your creativity to the field and helping
42:23
advance our understanding and support our growth and our ability to work with clients. Um, thank you for writing this
42:31
book and all the other books that you’ve written. Just thank you for being such a mind.
42:36
Um, thank you. I I am grateful that you’ve given me this space to share
42:42
about something that I deeply deeply love. This book represents a journey. It
42:49
it’s been a journey starting from scratch not knowing how to put this two together and this is a culmination of
42:59
that journey. It’s not the end of it because there are already things that I’m thinking about for the second
43:05
edition already. Oh, we can do this or that. But really, it represents a whole
43:12
journey for me. And so, it’s like my child honestly and and I’m grateful that you
43:19
have given me the space to talk about something that is very dear to me.
43:25
You’re so welcome. Okay, listeners. Um, as I mentioned, you know, if you’re
43:32
EMDR trained, if you’re Santra trained, go grab this book. if you’re not, check
43:38
it out anyway. Um, the book will uh open your eyes. Um, I love this book. This
43:45
book was a fun fun read. Um, and it’s exactly on what you said it was going to
43:50
be, which is it’s it’s practical. It’s digestible. Um, so listeners, wherever you are in
43:58
the world, uh, take care of yourselves. You are incredibly important. Anna said
44:05
something there at the end. You know, our ability to hold the minds of our
44:11
clients, right? Our ability to hold what’s happening um as it unfolds in
44:17
process is so important and that means taking care of ourselves and continuing
44:23
to do our work and expanding our capacity. So, wherever you are in the
44:29
world, I wish you well. I wish you expansion and uh you are the most
44:35
important toy in the playroom. Until next time.
