Hi, listeners. We are talking about making messes today in this episode from the Lessons from the Playroom podcast. Thank you so much for joining me and tuning in. And I have three special guests back with me.
If you missed our first conversation, I encourage you to go check it out. And who am I referring to? I am talking about Joanna Simmons, Andrea Davison, and Rachel Freeberg, who are certified Synergetic Play therapists, who joined me in a prior episode where we really went into a really cool conversation about exploring the different challenges that can come up for us as play therapists. But in this episode, we are going to be talking about messes because messes are very much part of the play therapy process.
So, a little bit about these three amazing individuals. Again. So, Joanna Simmons.
She is out of Vancouver, British Columbia. She is in private practice. She teaches at the university level.
She loves working with kids and does a lot with parents. I know that’s a sweet spot for you, Joanna. She’s also certified Spt supervisor, and she has really helped with publishing in the Canadian Journal of Counseling and Psychotherapy, an article about the efficacy of using Spt and child thunderplay therapy.
So, Joanna, thank you so much for coming back and having part two of our conversation. Andrea Davison. Lives near Me in Denver, Colorado.
She is also in practice. She has a really cool added expertise that she brings to the table as a BCBA practitioner. For those of you that don’t know what that means, it’s a board certified behavior analysis.
She works with kids that have medical challenges, life limiting illnesses, also kids on the spectrum with ADHD. And I love this, you’re like and other individuals that have short fuses. Very true.
Thanks, Andrea. And a little bit about Rachel. She’s a licensed clinical social worker, registered play therapist.
She lives out in Salem, Oregon, and she was introduced to Spt while struggling to heal from a health crisis. And she’s just also a badass therapist. So thank you, Rachel, for joining.
All right, everyone, let’s talk about messes, shall we? Yes, let’s talk about messes. So, Golly, who wants to start? What comes up for you when you think about messes in the playroom I think about messes don’t bother me too much in the playroom. I have a pretty okay window of tolerance for that.
I’m sure that my next appointment will be the biggest mess ever and I’ll not be able to handle it. But when I sometimes have a parent in the playroom and I can tolerate the mess but the parent is under this kind of understanding that we have to like we’re in school or something. The child has to clean up after themselves.
The child has to not make a mess. And so it sort of interrupts my flow with my client when I have the parents saying don’t do that. Oh you’re messing up her room or something I’m curious about I get stuck there in how I can respond to the parent when they’re present and the child and I are making message.
Absolutely. I think that there’s probably two parts that are happening for the parent. One is their own activation.
Just message for some people are activating and then also probably a social norm going on of like wait a second, what is my kid doing? My kid shouldn’t be doing this. Oh my know be nice to Rachel, be nice to her toys, be nice to her room. So I think we can really hold space that likely both processes are going on for the parent.
One that there might be something going on that’s really activating for them and outside their window of tolerance and triggering. And then also that they might be worried that they’re being about to be judged or what we think about them or do we think they’re now a bad parent because they have the type of child that comes in and makes messes and does this kind of a thing. So I think we can work with both.
Let me start with the second one. I think sometimes just naming it’s actually okay for messes to be made in here and naming that out loud to the parent and actually I actually need him to make a mess. Wouldn’t that be an interesting thing to say? Let’s remember why you brought your child here.
We need to make a mess so that we can work through this. Mess is really important. What really so sometimes just normalizing that it is important that it comes in.
It is important that we explore this. There can also be a piece in there of letting the parent know and I’m okay, I got this. Because if the parent has any part of them that’s trying to caretake us or worried about how we’re feeling about it.
So to also give the parent that reflection back of this is okay messes happen in here. I’m okay, I got this. If it’s too much, I’ll let you know.
That kind of messaging can also be really helpful for parents anxiety about it to go down. I think the piece that we really need to work with in a really sort of direct way is if we’re noticing that they’re activated in response to the child’s play and the energy is now starting to shut the child’s play down. Or somehow we’re noticing that the parent is about to become emotionally flooded, or the parent is now somehow doing something that’s inadvertently interrupting the process, then that’s an important piece for us.
I know you know this, but in spt and synergy play therapy, we have sort of a phrase that says we regulate the parent so the parent can regulate the child. So in those moments, what do we need to do to regulate the parent? Do we need to help name for the parent? It is it’s really hard, it’s overwhelming to see this mess. Okay, let’s take a breath.
This feels really big. It feels really chaotic, whatever might be going on that sometimes we need to offer that up for the parent and help orient the parent back into themselves. There’s also a beautiful place in here, too, around teaching parents how to set a boundary.
Because sometimes what we’re seeing in terms of the mess in the playroom is also what’s happening at home. And there’s an opportunity here to actually do some parenting coaching in there. So if the mess is happening, let’s say that you’re all painting together and the child all of a sudden wants to take a thing of paint and dump the whole thing of paint out, and it looks like it’s about to go all over the parent’s pants.
So there’s like this we’re about to have this boundary crossing here. The impulse from the parent is probably going to be like, stop, no. What are you doing? You can’t do that.
But if we could support the parent in learning different ways of setting the boundary whoa, that’s a lot. I’m not expecting that. I’m worried my pants are about to get messy.
Seems like the pain needs to really go everywhere today. Let’s find another way. So sometimes it’s those beautiful moments where we can step in and actually do some parent coaching and then have a discussion with the parent later about what that was like and that maybe that’s what they get to practice that week.
How can you practice setting the boundaries? Or then if the mess comes up again and it’s too much and the parent needs to set a boundary, how can you support the parent? Do you want to try it again? Do you want me to model it again? Do you want to step in? Do you want to try it? And it can really be a moment to help coach them so that they can work with their own window of tolerance in those moments. So lots of different possibilities in there. I think the biggest piece is helping the parent with their own activation and helping them connect to themselves in those moments.
I’m curious if that comes up for either you, Andrea, or Joanna. And, Joanna, you do a lot know, parent coaching and things like that. But what comes up for you when the parents in the room and the child’s making the mess? For me, it’s not directly related, but it’s a piece where a parent was sharing about how containment was overwhelming for them in the home and how they could handle messes outside, but when messes were inside of the home, it was too much.
And so we talked about actually using the shower curtain. So the shower curtain is a tool that we use with sand and other things to kind of help be a tool for containment within the playroom. And so I said, can you use, like, a rug? What can you use at home to feel that sense of containment for yourself so you can being within your own window of tolerance when you’re engaging with your child.
And it was really great to see their response and just like, how much possibilities were opened up by the possibility of using that tool. I find that with kids that need to do there’s like, a tactile mess that they need to make, throw them in the shower. The child that really likes to make messes in that way, I will often suggest that to parents get finger paints, throw them in the shower, whatever it is.
Let them smear stuff, color it, paint it, smash it, mush it, whatever it is. Because there’s a part of them that needs that sort of expression and that kind of a mess. But I love what you’re saying, Andrea, in terms of containment, is that the shower itself creates a sense of containment that you can easily wash that.
Easily wash that. And I do find that I do have to let the parents know that the children do have permission to make mess in here. No, they don’t need to clean up afterwards.
And I always get this sense like, well, you’re untraining my child. What I spent years training them to do right. And to to have explain to them, I have to explain to the parents.
This is part of the process. And yeah, let’s just take a breath as we work through this. Yeah.
So, Joanna, I imagine that there’s some listeners when you said that we’re like, wait, what? We don’t have to wait. The child doesn’t have to clean what? What? So let’s talk about that for a second, right? Because I think I don’t know if this is unique to synergetic play therapy or not, but might be useful just to share how we tend to think of it. So the cleanup part of it, the way that we tend to conceptualize it, is really based on the treatment plan and what the child is there for.
So, for example, if I have a child who is highly perfectionistic and the idea of making a mess would be like, oh, my gosh, the world is going to end. That is not going to be a child that I’m going to ask to pick up. Because the simple ask of asking them not to pick up supports the widening of their window of tolerance.
Helps them begin to get curious about how they’re going to be in relationship with themselves when some of that like, but I’ve got to put the horses away. And it’s like, actually, you could leave them out if you wanted to. What? Right.
So working with that edge, I wouldn’t want the child to pick up in that situation. Now, maybe I have a child who their work is around containment, but containment in a larger way. And so maybe that child would be maybe I simply ask them to put one toy away and that’s it.
It’s not about the full cleanup or what cleanup has to look like, but maybe we’re just working with choice around just pick one, and maybe it’s okay. Pick one for you and pick one for me. And so I put one away, and they put one away, and maybe next time it’s okay with two away or which side of the room do you want to do that section, or do you want to do this section? And we work towards containment.
So I think that there’s a real great place, and I’m so glad you said that, because there isn’t a rule, and it’s important that there’s not a rule. And sometimes we think that there’s a rule because that’s what’s socially acceptable. But if we really look at what do we do with the mess in the context of what is this child working on and what are the therapeutic goals, I think it opens up different possibility for do we have them clean up, do we not? How much in what way is it together? Is it separate? Is it with a song? How do we navigate this when we can really individualize it? Yes.
So I love your emphasis on treatment goal and also the emphasis on that we kind of navigate the rules depending on the treatment goal. And so, for instance, I had a client who was the perfectionist recently, and he purposely put the toys away in the wrong bucket, but it was a celebration because he’s doing something purposely to bend the yes, yes. All about the treatment goals.
All about the treatment. It yes. Andrea, I know that you love treatment goals.
I share that love with you. Okay, so what else comes up for us when we think about messes in the playroom? What else comes up? For me, messes in the playroom revolve around sand tray and carpets, right? Yes. I’m thinking of one particular client that I had who had to make a mess.
It was part of his journey that he had to dump that sand out of the sand tray. And the question was, how am I going to stay regulated through this? This is what he needs. Right.
So I was fortunate enough to have a kitchen in the office I was working in that had a linoleum floor so we could move the sand tray into there where I knew I could stay with his process, not have to worry about my Dysregulation as he made his messes. And I don’t know. I’ll leave that.
My question to you is, would there have been a different way? Would there have been another way instead of going to that place because a shower curtain also on the carpet didn’t work for me? I tried that. There was just too much sand. Still.
It had to be a really big mess. It did. Yeah.
Well, it sounds like what happened was exactly what needed to happen, and it evolved to exactly where it needed to. I think the emphasis is on hearing you navigate. It’s not about saying no.
It’s simply about finding a way for the mess to happen where the child still gets to experience what they’re needing to experience, but that you’re also still able to connect yourself and be able to regulate the situation and be able to be present with the situation. And for me, that’s the name of the game in messes, whether it’s Santre or anything else, it’s how do I keep if it’s out of my window of tolerance, how do I keep adjusting, adjusting, adjusting another way? Let’s find another way let’s find another way let’s find another way. Let’s find another way so that we can ultimately hold it.
So I hear that the linoleum floor ultimately was what worked for you. I hear that you tried the shower curtain. Blankets sometimes can work.
But what I’m actually hearing even more was that it needed to be bigger than the room. And so anything used in that room likely would not have worked. It needed to be bigger.
It needed to be outside of that outside of that space. Now, if you didn’t have a linoleum floor that you could have used, then there would have been likely, all right, let’s find another way. And really supporting the child in discovering what would be another way in the context of the room and what you had available.
And who knows what the child would have come up with? Who knows? Kids are so creative, right? Who knows where that or ultimately that would have gone? Now, I want to admit something, because I think sometimes we also don’t give ourselves permission to change up the playroom as well. So when I was working in one of the elementary schools as a contract play therapist, the space I was in was really small. And I had my little whatever like luggage roller and I had my little portable sand tray box, and I had my other bins with all my toys in it.
And I would get them out of my car and set them up in my little office and basically wield my play therapy office in every day. And there was a child who had experienced a significant amount of trauma. And his activation was high, high sympathetic arousal.
And part of the mess, we’re going to call it the mess, were explosions. So that it was the experience of chaos overwhelm shock, disorganization. Can’t even stop it even if you wanted to.
It comes in too big, too fast. That was what he was working on. Well, that meant that everything that I brought was covering the entire space, which was outside of my window of tolerance.
Right. It was so much for my system. So he did a brilliant job at helping me feel his inner world.
And it dawned on me that it wasn’t about the toys. It was simply about the experience of having to dump it out, get it out. It’s so much, so big.
And so I started to bring in half the amount of toys. So sometimes we forget that, you know what, we can half the amount of things you can. Half the amount of sand you can half the amount if there are certain things where, note this child has the paint and you’re needing this, and they’re squeezing out every little ounce of the paint and you can’t contain it.
You’re trying and you can’t it’s okay to not have those paints in there. The child will find another way to explore what they need to explore. And I think sometimes as play therapists, we forget that.
It’s like, no, I’ve got to be able to tolerate whatever the child does with any of the things in my room at all times. And it’s like, well, wait a second. If I need to remove something because it helps me stay present, there’s something in it that’s really useful.
So can remove half the sand. We don’t think about that. I’m curious, have any of you ever just removed things from your room to support yeah.
What have you removed? The sand. Oh, the sand. I work previously a lot in families homes, so also helping the parents to par things down so that their window of tolerance isn’t pushed as much.
Because sometimes toys just add up in a home environment. They do. I would put away again, with this particular child, any game that had multiple pieces, they would end up yes.
All over the place. Generally, games went away. Yeah.
So I think it would be helpful for us to have a chat about another angle on this, which is if we’re, for example, containing or putting things away, what is that really about? Is that really because it’s linked to the treatment goal? We’ll go back to the goals, right. Because we see that that’s in service of and we see that we can still support the child in doing what they need to do, even by adjusting the environment in some way. Are we doing it because it is out of our window of tolerance? And we do need a little bit of a break in there.
Are we doing it? We just don’t like it. We just don’t like it. And if the answer is we just don’t like it, we just don’t like messes.
We just don’t like it. We want order. We want organization, right? We don’t like things out of order.
Not that that’s good, bad, right, or wrong, but there’s a place in all of this for us to pause and say, is there any work in here for me, right? Is there any work in all of this for me, around my own window of tolerance? Is there any work in here around me getting curious about why are these messes? It’s not the mess that’s hard. It’s the feelings that come up as a result of the mess. I think that’s important.
We can even say it again. Say it again. Say it again.
It’s not the mess that’s hard. It’s the feelings that come up as a result of the mess. That might be helpful for parents, too, right? The mess is just there’s a lot of toys on the floor.
That’s what that is, right? But how they were put on the floor, the way they were put on the floor, the energy, whatever it is, the quantity of it, and how that hits our sensory system, the feelings that come up, and there’s a place in here for us to stop and say, why is that hard for us? Is it our own need for control? Is it our own need for whatever it is? When I first became a play therapist, I don’t know if any of you know this about me, and again, so play therapists, as you’re listening to me say this, if this is you, please know I am not saying that this is good, bad, right, or wrong. I’m just naming a dynamic, right? I really wanted control in my playroom, and I had everything labeled. I mean, absolutely everything was labeled.
And I wanted things in the bins in the right order. If you look at my playroom now, that would be like, laughable, right? But it was just the part of me that didn’t quite know how to be with myself quite yet. And it was my way of attempting to control the environment so that I didn’t have to feel quite so much.
And as I’ve learned how to feel more, and as I’ve learned how to be with myself more, I’ve noticed that I can hold more of that. I don’t need my things labeled quite so much, although I do like an organized room, but I don’t need them labeled. I don’t get emotionally flooded.
And again, the way that I did it wasn’t wrong. It’s just a reflection also of just where I was. The way I’m doing it now isn’t necessarily right.
It’s just a reflection of where I am now and what my window of tolerance is now. So I think there’s just a place in here for us to really stop and go, yeah. Those feelings, the ones that come up when the messes happen? The ones, like, out of control, helpless, feeling, like, oh, gosh, what I say? Or if I set a boundary, it’s not respected, it’s not listened to, intruded upon.
I mean, all these feelings that can come up overwhelmed, chaotic, hyper, vigilant, just what’s our relationship with those, and is there anything in there for us to get curious about? I think that’s an interesting conversation for us to have with ourselves. Yeah. I also like what you say, too, is that it’s not always the same either.
Depends on how well we slept. Are we hungry? Are we thirsty? Right. And I like how you remind us of that, too.
What’s tolerable one day may not be tolerable the next day. Totally. And learning how to navigate that with clients that like, yes, last week I could handle this.
This week I can’t. And that that’s okay, too. Yeah.
Especially when it’s the same client, and the client may think or now expect you to be able to, but, yes, you get to be human in relationship, which means that, yes, what you were able to do last week may not be what you’re able to do this week. And that’s totally okay. Yeah.
Very interesting conversation, everyone. So what else comes up when we think about this topic? Is there anything else that we want to highlight for our listeners here? I want to name something really quick, and that’s, for me, I actually get more Dysregulated with the hyper focus and with the organization, and so acknowledging that a lot of humans where their Dysregulation or practicing their window of tolerances with the messiness, for me, it’s kind of the inverse of that and just acknowledging it. Oh, I love that.
Yes. For us not to make assumptions that the messes or the feelings of the mess or the Dysregulating piece, that it can also go the other way, too. I love that.
Thank you so much, Andrea, for that reminder. Okay, everyone, thank you again for such a cool conversation. We got to get a little messy in our conversation.
Just kidding. Boom. Boom.
Thank you again for showing up, for sharing your expertise, asking your questions, being a voice for those who can’t ask their questions directly. Everyone take a deep breath, maybe even take another one. Wherever you are, you’re the most important toy in the playroom.
Until next time.
