[Music] Hi everyone. Welcome back to the next
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episode from the Lessons from the Playroom podcast. I have two fabulous
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individuals uh with me here today because we’re going to talk about the creative process. So, I know as a play
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therapist that we all are creative to a certain degree, but I also know that many of you have ideas about what you
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would love to create. Maybe you even do create things for your for your clients. Everything from games to new handouts to
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visual things to whatever it is. And so um I have uh brought on our guests to
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support us in understanding more about the creative process and how we can bring that into
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our work as clinicians. So let me introduce these fabulous uh
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individuals. So, uh, many of you actually might know these individuals because they are the, uh, they are the
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the the masterminds between Mama Owl Minis. Many of you probably have some of
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their sculptures in your office. Um, but Katherine and Alicia Denim are joining
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me today. So, if you are not familiar with them outside of um Mama Al’s minis,
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uh they’re both licensed clinical social workers and registered play therapist supervisors with a combined 40-year plus
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experience in the mental health field. Both of y’all, my goodness. They specialize working with children,
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families, and the LGBTQIA plus community, bringing a compassionate, creative, client- centered approach to
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their work. Both deeply believe in the healing power of play and self-expression. often incorporating art
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and creativity into the therapeutic process. Alicia draws on her background as an artist to support teens in
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exploring identity and emotional growth, while Katherine brings a wealth of experience with young children, adoptive
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families, and early development. Together, and they are a fabulous duo,
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everybody. Together, they offer a unique blend of clinical skill, creative insight, and heartfelt dedication to
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helping others thrive. Welcome, welcome, welcome.
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Thank you. That’s an amazing intro. I know. That just makes us sound like super awesome. I want to get to know
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those people. Can I just say that that whole 40-year
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thing, I feel like the majority of that might be Katherine’s third. No, I don’t know. Just kidding. Sounds accurate.
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Well, I as I just mentioned like you both have um taken this creative process
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and you’ve done something really extraordinary with it and I just can’t
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think of better individuals to have a conversation with about the creative
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journey. So, where do you where do you want to start? What where do you feel inspired to begin?
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I think we should start at the beginning a little just to show people kind of the evolution. I think some folks see what
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we do now and and how we work now and think that’s how you should start and
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that’s so yeah so true. We we weren’t as visible when we were starting and so
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people didn’t didn’t know that part of the journey or maybe didn’t see all those all those beginning pieces. So
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maybe starting at the beginning and also just clarifying too that while Alicia
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here is an artist by nature, me, Katherine am not. And so I think too
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making sure that folks know that you don’t have to feel like you’re an artist to be creative. And so um because once
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you can find that thing that kind of taps into where you want to be creative,
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then you can go in that direction. Everyone isn’t an art in clay and everyone’s not an art with paint and
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everyone or artist I mean with clay and paint but once you find the thing that speaks to you then you’re an artist as
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well. I really like I I feel like everybody is an artist to be honest with
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you and that’s always fun because I get a lot of push back whenever I say that but um my evidence is absolutely
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researchbased and here’s the research. Um, when you were 5 years old and someone handed you a box of crayons and
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a piece of paper or coloring book, did they have to tell you what to do with it? Probably not, right? Like, we just
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kind of naturally do have this creative instinct in us. It’s just, you know, are we going to nurture it and grow it? Um,
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or are we going to not do anything with it, you Mhm. So, having said all of that, hopefully
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that makes anyone listening to this realize that they too can create. They
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don’t have to have this like internal calling to be because I don’t have that at all. Well, Catherine, before you jump
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into the the beginning, because you know, people might know you now and what
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it is now, but some people may not. So, will you just say something really quick about Mama Al Minis and then we’ll go
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back we’ll go back to the beginning. Yes. Um, so Mama Al’s Minis is it’s an u
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just the two of us and we hand make uh art pieces for San Tree Therapy.
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We Alicia and I well Alicia mostly sculpts, hand paint every single piece.
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So yeah. So, our yeah, our pieces are absolutely um I think that there may be
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at this point maybe two or three pieces that we incorporate silicone molds that
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we have purchased and modify them, but um a vast majority of our pieces are all
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hand sculpted from um from clay or from Sculpey. And uh at that point then we
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create a silicone mold in our studio. Then we can massroduce them uh using
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industrial strength resin. So um that’s literally the cut right down to how we
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do our process. Yeah. So yeah, not how we started. No. So six years ago when we
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officially started Mama Owls, it was about reverse there. We didn’t actually have any of our own hand sculpted pieces
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on the table. Everything was uh a silicone mold that we could find. Um,
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and so Alicia wasn’t didn’t identify as a sculptor. Didn’t think she knew how
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six years ago. Um, I’ve always been an artist like uh by nature, meaning I like
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draw and sketch and things like that. So, um, that naturally kind of transitioned over into painting like
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before this even started. But sculpting that actually came about what maybe two
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and a half years ago or so. Right over I’ve only been sculpting about two and a half years ago. Oh, I like I like to
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keep this right at my desk as a reminder of our humble beginnings. This is So,
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for those of you that can’t see this, right, it looks like a pig. Is that Is that what this is? Maybe. It’s just
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whatever. We’re just not going to identify what it is, but it’s a it’s a pink sculpture of sorts with it might be
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ears and a nose and a mouth. Okay. Yeah, we’ll go with that. So
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moving from that, this is literally the very first sculpture I ever made and years ago. So from here to Yeah. Yes.
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And now what’s being held up uh is this extraordinary um sculpture that looks
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like a woman with her arms stretched open and um hair that is going down the
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body but looks like fire and fire up the back. and quite a elaborate intr like
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very detailed um piece that has a lot of movement to it. Absolutely. It and I
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think too when we’re talking about the creative process um at least when I was in the office and whenever people would
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talk about creating something my brain said creation looked like that latter
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piece that fury that if I couldn’t make something like that well then I had no business creating. When kids would come
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in and they’re like, “Make this out of Play-Doh.” I immediately was like, “Oh,
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you want Play-Doh.” The whole idea,
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can we just pause for all the therapists that were like, “Oh, yeah.” Those moments or the kids like, “Draw me a
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picture of a giraffe.” And you’re like, “Okay.” So, you’re like, “That is not
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what a giraffe looks like.” You’re like, “I’m I’m trying.
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you feel a sort of a little bit of pressure that you could you should be able to do these things like if you
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can’t then then uh you know I don’t know you still got to play therapy
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exactly things I was like I just want to play a game or I want to do something a little more concrete so when when we
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started this whole thing um Alicia was actually creating um in her office with
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uh kiddos that she was working with. They needed some really big pieces that expressed a lot of heavy emotion. And so
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there was no clay involved. And I think every therapist has paper, glue sticks,
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and some kind of like square base that you could make this in your office. And that is exactly what I used whenever I
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made the very first sculpture. So um the first time I ever made a mini, it was
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right in the middle of a sand tray session. Actually, I was just just getting my feet on the ground um with
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Sand Tree and I’m like, “Oh, what is this? This this really cool like modality is like amazing.” Like I can
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really see like some really quick changes being made, right, whenever we
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use this. So, I’m I’m thinking like, ah, like this is so awesome, right? So, then I’m working with a I think he was 16 or
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17year-old teenage boy was running a group home at the time. So, adolescent boys in foster care. And he looks over
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at me and I’m thinking, man, we’re like killing it. This San Tree session is like opening up doors for him and he
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just like looks at me and kind of tilts his head to the side and he’s like, “So, Miss
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Alicia, these Care Bears are cool and all, but I need a tornado. Like, is
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there any way you could get some like real stuff in here?” And I was like, you know, let’s just take a pause,
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right? And so we picked the sand tray up and moved it. I grabbed a piece of paper, some hot glue, and literally I
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rolled it up like a snow cone cup, right? And then we just took the hot glue and wrapped it around. A lot a lot
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a lot of hot glue and wrapped it around like 15 minutes of hot gluing, right? And so then I grabbed some spray paint
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and um let him spray it, grabbed a a coaster off of my desk, we used it as a
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base and he was like, “Yes.” And then we pulled the sand tray back out. I mean, that was literally the very first mini I
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ever made. So, you don’t need, you know, at the risk of like, you know, us not making a ton of sales or whatever by me
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saying this, I’ll throw it out there, man. You do not need our pieces. You do not need expensive sculptures or or
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figures or whatever. You you really can use what you have in your office. Yeah. And and kids get what they need. Well,
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and I want to highlight that you just went with a crazy like you just trusted
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yourself and you were like and I’m just going to make something and it’s going to be whatever it is because that’s
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what’s needed in the moment which I love that because also um balancing out
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Katherine what you were saying where so many play therapists have this sort of perfectionistic quality about being an
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artist like I can’t do that unless it looks like the thing I I can’t I’m not an artist. I can’t do that. I who who am
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I to just do something on the fly, create something or draw something or whatever it is. And and I mean this is
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exactly why I brought you both on here. It’s like play therapists unleash your creativity. It it doesn’t need to look a
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particular way. You know, if you have a an inspiration to create something,
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build something in the playroom, to draw something, to make a diagram, to who the
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heck knows what. like like trust trust that that’s emerging for a reason 100%.
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And if we go back and look at that piece now um because I was able to we made I
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don’t know maybe six or seven of those original style tornadoes and I was able to negotiate with a customer our new and
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improved tornado for the ones. I I wanted to see our progress. And if you
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go back and look at it, it kind of looks like a goblet now or it maybe looks like um it could be either way tornado or
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that’s exactly right. The point time everyone agreed that it was a tornado
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and it served the purpose. And I think too we we get caught up in this mindset
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of they these kids or whomever is asking needs it to look a certain way. And I think really what they need is to know
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that we’re just willing to do the most that we can do to get them to the closest they need to be to wherever that
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is. Like absolutely we’ll just if you need a volcano, let’s push some paper
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together, mount it up, tape it to the thing, and cut a hole in the top something. You know, I think we get
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really um as adults get caught up in that end product idea instead of just
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kind of going blindly with what you feel. And that just I think it puts a
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lot of barriers in in your ability to kind of let go and just follow what you feel. Mhm. Totally. Oh, totally. You’ve
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been listening to me. I don’t know. Probably.
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So, I’m curious then, um, Alicia, this question is for you. Then at what point
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did you actually claim this identity of
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wait a second, I maybe do want to identify more as an artist in a
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particular way. Like how how how did that you’re both laughing as I’m saying that so I can’t wait for whatever story
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this is um or whatever journey this is. But like how did you go from I’m just going to wing it to make a tornado to
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actually let me honor this part of myself on a whole other level. So I’m going to actually go back to
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something that you taught us years ago. Um, you said something that just really
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kind of shook me and I think I’m I’m sure I’ve shared this with you, but you know, you said something somewhere along
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the way about um, it is the wounds, right? That whenever we look at the wounds, then we can see like where our
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passion is and the things that like our heart really is connected to. When you said that, I was like, that is such a load of crap. Like, I buy
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like say like I’m I’m here for it and I’m like, yes, this is brilliant. Right. Well, you said that. I was like, there
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is literally no part of me that is hurt about being an artist. And I sat with it
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for like the rest of the training. And then it just hit me. So, I was probably
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about six or seven years old. I was walking through um the store with my mom and I grabbed one of those like really
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expensive leather uh like sketch pads, right? So, I remember I’ve always had
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like a little easel in my my room with like the computer paper and the tempora paint and all the things as a kid. So,
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um my mom was like, “What are you doing with that?” And I was like, “Oh, mom, I really I would love this. Like, I think
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I could do some really cool stuff.” And just so dismissively, and I have to
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preface it because I’m southern, so you know, we have to protect our mamas. So, she is an amazing mother. And also she
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just kind of very dismissively said, “Oh, baby, that that is for like real artist, you know, that’s for real
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artists. You don’t need that.” Right now, given it was probably like 40 bucks or of course I didn’t need it at the time, but I was like, “Oh my gosh, like
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that hurt my little artist’s heart.” Right? I still love to throw that shade up at my mom every once in a while now.
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Like I’ll sculpt something really cool or draw something and she’ll be like, “Oh, I love that.” And I’m like, “Am I a real artist, Mom?” You know?
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So, you know, I think that I never really felt like I was an artist. It kind of goes back to what, you know,
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Katherine was saying in the She would always say, “I doodle.” Like, I I do art, I doodle, I sketch. But to say I’m
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an artist was just so vulnerable, right? And so, I think we were solidly two
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years into Mama Owls into owning an art business. And um I still like people
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would come to the table and say, “Are you the artist?” And I would be like, whoa, I I create like these pieces, you
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know. And so finally after a pretty successful conference, um you know, Katherine was like, I think at this
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point you really should just own it. I think you are the artist to say, you know, I’m the artist. And so, you know,
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I was like, okay, what what’s the harm? So I just started kind of practicing it
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outside of bigger crowds of people and I was like, damn it, I am the artist. I am
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the artist, you know? And so now it just feels like yes, absolutely I’m the artist. You know, um it’s vulnerable.
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It’s really, you know, our artwork is, you know, to some degree it’s it’s my
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and our I say our because some of our pieces come out of arguments or, you
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know, ruptures with us, but um it’s it’s our vulnerability on display in front of
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everyone. So yeah. Yeah, totally. And I really I think that is such a relatable
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um experience to anyone who’s tried something new that like no one else has
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done. Even if it’s not art, if you’ve if you’ve in your office created a brand
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new way of playing a game or you created a game using something else or you created a worksheet, like anything that
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comes from you and has a piece of you in it is extremely vulnerable. Then you put
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it on a table and you put a price on it and you call it something and you ask people to their face, will you pay this
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amount of money for it? Oh, it just like amplifies the I you know the anxiety and the the
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level of um rawness that goes along with having a business like this. So
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yeah, absolutely. I’ll even speak to that from a from the teacher perspective. you know, putting new
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content, putting new workshop together. Uh there is it’s a it’s a creation. It’s its own sculpture if we want to use the
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metaphor. It’s its own sculpture and you’re putting it out there for people to judge.
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Yes. And challenge and also appreciate, you know, it’s Yeah. It’s it’s it’s it’s all
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of it. Um I know for me though in those creative moments, it’s almost like what
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does my heart want to say? Like what? Yeah. What? Like there’s something that I want to say and and there’s going to
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be a pain in me if I don’t say it. Like there’s going to be something in me that
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is going to eat at me unless I give it a voice, unless I give it expression,
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unless I bring it into existence. Is that what it feels like in in in you
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too? Real way for sure. with me. It um I can’t like just ruminating over and
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over. It just circles in my mind like you know and it you can’t get away from
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it. You feel it, you see it. I I will literally dream about it if I don’t do it and get it get it out. So yeah,
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absolutely. In this moment, it’s interesting for me to hear that from you, Lisa, that experience on your end
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because I value so much like what you do. And in my head, I know that there is
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a creative process to it coming to fruition, but I guess I also thought
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like, oh, it’s knowledge based for a lot of it. It’s like you collecting knowledge and putting it together in a
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beautiful way. And so I didn’t even put together like it was still part it was
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still very similar to the creative process that we go through. But the words that you just said about like it
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will pain me if I don’t say that absolutely is true for us and now you’re
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telling me it’s true on you on that other end of it as well. We do sometimes think like man is this is this the path
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that we’re supposed to still be on? There’s lots of challenges. We actually went to school for something else.
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Should we just go back and do that? And there’s no template for what we’re doing. Like there’s no book that has
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been written blind all the whole way world, right? And so, but when we like
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voice that out loud, do we just stop what we’re doing? There really is like a physical gut punch of I I can’t not do
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this. Like we’ll figure out a a way to do this that doesn’t whatever the issue is at the time. Yeah, there’s like a
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literal physical response of I cannot sit in an office and just work with
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clients. I have to do this part. So, yeah, you’re you’re literally also describing uh almost verbatim for me
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when I was putting synergetic play therapy together. Yeah. Wow. This is interesting. We’re talking like this the parallel process
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of creativity, right? And it’s like I was seeing things. I was feeling things. But my education was this and my
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schooling was this and you’re supposed to do it like this, but something else in me wants to do it this way. And how
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do I be authentic? And how do I express myself in a way that’s me? But what happens if I do? Am I going to be
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accepted? Am I going to be rejected? How do I trust myself? Wait a second. And it was like at at the end of the day, my
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trust in what needed to come out of me superseded the fear of what the backlash
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should be. Well, and what you just said, like all of that that you threw together right there, what that says to me is
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that creativity is just part of the human experience. Just is this is a human experience,
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human connector. I mean, you could not have done what you have done um without
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that element, you know. So, yeah, I mean, that’s powerful. Well, here’s another one that we can bring in that
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the three of us have in common. I mean, how about those creative moments uh as parents, those mo those moments, right,
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when I know when I know a lot of our listeners can relate to this, too, for expand out the creative process versus
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just creating something for our clients. those those moments as parents when we’re like, “Nope, I gotta do this a
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different way, or I have to create something different for my kid, or I have to create a new routine for my kid,
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or I literally have to um I have a friend who literally turned
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her living room into something that looked like a playground because it’s what her kids’ body needed.” And so that
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was it. Out the door goes the dining room, in comes the gymnasium, you know, and it’s like what a creative process.
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Yep. And I think too when you are doing the thing that you’re being called to do, when you are truly in that like zone
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of all the things are coming together, the desire is within you already and
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then the knowledge somehow comes and then the doors open. Like when all of that kind of slams
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together in when you are doing what you’re called to do somehow all of the
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things that would get in the way just kind of get removed or get minimized or
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lessened or somehow you find a way to get over it or shift it. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that, you know, she, your
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friend, didn’t allow for traditional um house plans to get in the way of like,
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you know, people are going to come over and judge me and and this and that. She just the desire inside of her was so
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strong that she knew this is what they needed, no matter what it was going to look like, no matter who was going to feel what about it. And I think that is
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true for us as well. There are times where we’re like, man, what is the
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what’s the next best step for us? because there’s no plan and everyone has
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an opinion, but but only the two of us are living and breathing this in and out every day. And so we do have to
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sometimes just kind of shut out what the world would do or say or think. Trust internally that hey, we’re going to do
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the right thing because we’re going to listen to what’s going on inside of us and then just do it and it seems to
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work. And the dining room is only a dining room or whatever, right? Because someone said it was. So because it’s a
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gymnasium. Yeah, thank you. I mean, and that that’s that’s kind of how we do that our business a lot of times is, you
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know, there’s not really a template. So, we’re going to say this is the template and we’re going to roll with it and when it works, awesome. And when it doesn’t,
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we reevaluate. Yep. Exactly. Yep. So, there’s there’s two things that you’re saying that I want to highlight. One is
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Katherine. I mean, didn’t you just so beautifully describe what we’re all uh
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aiming for uh in the playroom? basically momentto moment attunement with oursel
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and our client and what needs to emerge and then do we do we trust oursel enough
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even if what seems to need to happen in the moment doesn’t follow the script doesn’t follow the protocol doesn’t
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follow the thing on page 38 of that book that we read doesn’t follow the thing
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that the teacher said you’re supposed to do when the thing happens with the
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whatever and it’s like hold on they’re not in the room the people that are in the room are the therapist and the
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child. And if you need a tornado, Yep. you need a tornado. Exactly. And if the
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sand needs to come out of the box, the sun needs to come out of the box, right? Yes. And if we need a mess, we need a
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mess. And if we need containment, we need containment. But it’s like um uh so
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that’s just like your words were like ah yes back to that beautiful momentto
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moment attunement in the playroom right with ourselves and with our client. And then second to that the piece around
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well the dining room basically can be whatever it needs to be which is also
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let’s go back to your sculptures that you create. I mean, Alicia, one of the things I love about the sculptures um
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that you create is that they they they represent so many possibilities.
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Sure. It’s not Right. And I think because there’s the movement, it’s not a static thing. like their sculptures feel
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alive and and and and because of that, people really can add in the meaning and
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they can bring it into their creative creative process because it really can be whatever the heck it needs to be and
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is it I think that’s part of the creativity is therapists like can it be whatever it needs to be whether it’s the
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session, whether it’s the symbol, whether it’s the toy, whether it’s the
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the play like can it just be whatever it needs to be? I don’t know if you both want to talk about that idea because I
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think we try to conquer make we try to concret concretize. Did I just make up a word? No, because it understood
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concretize. I like it. Let’s go with it. What does it mean? I actually don’t know another word now to explain what you’re
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trying to say. I think that’s Yeah, because it can be whatever it wants to be, folks. Right. that word can be
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whatever it wants. That’s 100% true. You know, I think um
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for me it’s kind of about like if it’s going to be whatever it’s going to be or
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me and I’m just speaking for self. Um but letting go of the control of what it’s supposed to be, you know, that’s a
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tough one. That’s a tough one for me. So letting go of of the control of it and
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allowing it to be and grow and move the way that it needs to. So how do you
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bring that concept when you’re creating a sculpture? What’s your what’s your process with that? I imagine that’s a the tornado.
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Okay. So this tornado piece, it was a piece that was um just over and over I
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just was I would sculpt it and I would be like, “Oh, it’s good enough.” But really like in my head it’s definitely
28:34
not good enough. And so I’m like let’s just make two or three of them and take them and if they sell awesome. But you
28:40
know the way that I let go of control sometimes is the universe just like smacking me in the face you know and
28:46
this is how that worked. I worked on that tornado one night for hours and
28:51
multiple nights like when we when we talk about this tornado thing. So we went from that original with the paper
28:57
that looks like a chalice. Um, and it probably was a year long process of over
29:03
and over trying to fine-tune it and change it and it never was what she wanted. So, I kept saying, “We’re going
29:10
to put this other one out. We know what to do with this one. Put it out.” So, when she’s like, I worked on it one night for a really long time. Please
29:16
also know there were it was a year-long process of working on it. So, one night I’m like, I finally get it to the place
29:23
that I’m like, okay, I’m satisfied enough for tonight. Right. So,
29:28
here it is. It’s beautiful. And so, as I’m showing it to Katherine, I set it back down. Now, it’s not resin at this
29:35
point, right? So, it’s still pretty delicate and fragile. As I’m setting it down, I like trip and like totally like
29:42
face plant, right? And so, as I do, I drop the tornado and it breaks right
29:49
place that as it lands it like twist. And she was like, “Don’t you dare touch
29:55
it.” So, it’s like hanging on by this one little piece of clay and it literally was what it is today and we
30:01
haven’t messed with it since. The the cool thing is from the perspective that she had, she could not see what I could
30:07
see from the back. She’s like, “It’s broken.” And she’s holding. I was like, “From here, from the backside, the movement that you
30:14
just gave it is exactly what you’ve been looking for, but you can’t see it from your front view.” Right. And so it was
30:19
really like this serendipitous moment of, oh, if we just we just do what we’re
30:26
being called to do and we follow like what’s being told to us inside of our body and we stay in touch with that
30:32
because that’s the only thing that doesn’t lie to us. We’re going to get there eventually. Yeah. And whenever you don’t, then sometimes the universe will
30:39
just say, “Hey, I’m just going to do this for you because this is painful at this point to watch.” Right.
30:45
we’re gonna break it. And that is so we’re looking for movement. Let me give you movement.
30:50
Um the other thing for me too in this creative process with this is learning how to listen to my body, right? So for
30:58
me there’s this really and the only way that I can kind of describe it is it’s kind of magical when it happens. Um but
31:05
I sometimes like I will want to sculpt something and it will take me so long
31:11
like hours and hours. And I know this is just not the time to do it. So what I have learned to do is just listen to
31:17
whenever it’s time to sculpt it. So my hands will literally get warm whenever I
31:23
am working on a piece. Um the piece that we actually had you name I probably sculpted that piece uh I don’t know
31:30
maybe 15 or 20 minutes. Um, and it it is one of the most like detailed intrinsic
31:38
pieces, you know, like with the roots coming down off of her and everything. If I would have set and tried to
31:45
intentionally sculpt that from the beginning knowing that that was my end goal, no, girl, it would have taken like
31:51
hours and hours. So, um, it’s it’s twofold for me if ever it had come. And
31:56
I think it this goes back to what you’re talking about, Lisa, with that creative process. it, you know, when we’re in the room with the kid, just trusting what is
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happening inside of us and that attunement of if you’re being called to do something, whether it’s in the
32:09
playroom in the moment or like longer, bigger vision. Um if if if you’re not being called but
32:17
you’re trying to force yourself in a certain direction and nothing is really
32:22
coming out for you the way that you want and it’s not lining up and it’s just like little misses here and there and
32:28
it’s not exactly it’s possible that you’re not really trusting your inside
32:35
brain of what you need to be doing. up another idea and when your brain and your body go in different directions
32:42
really nothing not going to line up nothing great really comes from that so I have a story with that it’s when I
32:48
wrote aggression and play therapy another creative process right and I was
32:54
like okay I’ve gota I got to write this book and I was getting all this advice
32:59
on how you should write a book like here’s how here’s how you do it here’s
33:04
the steps involved you know some people were like lock yourself in a room for a week essentially and just write. You
33:10
know, other people are like, “No, just make sure you write a little bit, you know, every day and like chip away, but make sure you’re in the same space every
33:17
day and use the same pen and the same I mean, like everyone had these like ideas, right, about what it should be.”
33:23
I kept trying. I kept trying and it was like the craziest level of writer’s block. Like I would sit down and I would
33:30
just go completely completely blank until finally it was what am I doing?
33:37
Like how do I want to write and who am I writing for? Like who am I
33:43
writing for? I’m writing this book for me. I I because I have something I want
33:48
to say about the topic. If somebody happens to read it, cool. If nobody reads it, cool. because this is just
33:55
something that I so I wrote the book for myself really essentially right and I
34:01
did it in the way that I wanted to do it my rhythm which I have to eat when I
34:08
write so I was like there were days I was like and I have to be in an environment where
34:14
there’s a lot of going on and so there were days where I would literally go to three different coffee shops and I would
34:20
and I would be in movement throughout the day okay let’s Let’s order something here. Let’s write a little bit. Okay,
34:27
now now I’m bored. All right, let’s let’s keep moving. Let’s go to the next the next coffee shop, something else.
34:35
Let’s move. And I and I would stay in this sort of movement. Okay, somebody else that may not work for them, but
34:41
that’s what I found I needed to do for me in order to get the book out. And I
34:46
had to stop listening to the way everybody else did it. Oh my gosh. It’s so true. Yeah. once which is why we
34:53
don’t we had lots of assistance in the beginning with from
34:58
people like you know Alicia comes from a a family that has ran their own business created their own business and we had
35:03
friends and everything and and but nobody was us so even if they had great
35:09
ideas they just weren’t great ideas for us based on what we were capable of doing or or what our passion was and so
35:16
we had to learn and maybe it’s easier with the two of us because we can bounce don’t step off of each other, but we had
35:23
to learn that like even if there are other people doing what we’re doing, they’re not who we are. And so this is
35:30
what we need. Like I’m on the spectrum, so I can’t be, you know, in certain
35:35
situations and then expected to do what I’m supposed to do if things aren’t the
35:41
way that I need them to be. If all her stars don’t align, that’s right. You’re not going to get any out of me. So I
35:46
think it it’s twofold. It’s one who knowing who you are is mandatory. Like
35:53
if you don’t know if you don’t know who you are and what you need and you’re about to embark on a journey start there
35:59
that you never that’s brand new and super vulnerable and you’re kind of inside out all the time. Boy, you’re
36:05
you’re going to either get to know yourself quickly or you’re going to find that you don’t have what it takes to go down this road at this time. And the
36:12
other part is once we did finally feel like we had I guess a rhythm to make something
36:19
come out of us like a production of sorts then we did find our little team of people who could we could say to them
36:27
this is what we need when we give you this information. And so we do we don’t do this like just the two of us. We do
36:33
have a little tiny team of loved ones that we shoot stuff off to and get feedback from or, you know, we have a
36:40
variety of people that we um bounce things off of. There you go. That’s the language. So, I think it’s you you can’t
36:48
start with having this whole kind of team help you. You really have to who am
36:53
I and what do I want to do? How do I do it? And then find the people that are going to help support you on your
36:59
specific mission. Yeah. Yeah. The the vision has to come first from within and then you find
37:06
people that can plug into that. But if we’re trying to do something based off
37:11
of someone else’s vision design work is before Mama Als Alicia
37:18
and I had really talked about opening up our own private practice that had we had a name and it wasn’t just going to be
37:25
therapy. She was going to do some music stuff, art stuff, yoga stuff. I mean, we were going to have like this whole
37:31
creative healing space was kind of the name of it. Creative healing something. Anyway, healing center. That’s right. We
37:39
We bought a book and we wrote the name and we had a mission statement. Oh, we were on our way, friends. We were on our
37:45
way. I was already making the application for the kind of people we were going to hire, the questions we were going to ask. Like I knew
37:53
everything about this brand new center we were going to open because we were we felt that we were being called to
37:59
something different than where we were. Little did I know it wasn’t actually the creative healing center we were
38:04
creating. That mission and vision statement that we created 15 years ago or
38:10
10 years ago is still absolutely it totally aligns with this business and what we’re doing. It is absolutely what
38:16
we our mission for Mama Al as well. So it we had some of the parts right, but
38:21
not all of them. And it’s crazy that some of that still was applicable. Yeah. Amazing. Well, the mission clearly was
38:27
aligned with what you wanted to put out there. It was just what it looked like
38:33
that um that that was the part that was uh that needed some tweaking. Sounds like. Yeah. Need a little need a little
38:40
tweaking. If she had said, “We’re going to do this via art.” Initially, I’d have been like, “No.”
38:47
No one does that. People off their art. We’re going to do a therapy center. It
38:53
started with art. I would have said no. Well, and can I also acknowledge because I think that there’s a lot of play
38:58
therapists that right they they they are therapists and they they are helpers and
39:03
they are boxed into the idea that being a therapist means this sort of therapy
39:10
service, if you will, this direct service um in the playroom without recognizing that you’re both therapists.
39:17
Yeah. Totally different way. Yeah. But you’re still therapists. You’re still supporting the healing process. You’re
39:23
still guiding people towards integration, but you’re doing it through miniatures and you’re doing it through
39:29
sculptures. And I think play therapists need more permission to say, look, maybe
39:34
the the the way that you do play therapy, maybe you’re recognizing it’s not your jam. And maybe there’s another
39:41
way that you want to support the healing in children. And can you give yourself permission to freaking go for it? Oh
39:48
man. And I’m telling you, if you can’t give yourself permission, we can give you permission right now. do it. Go for it. Do it. Because this this box of
39:57
being a a therapist and and holding space for people is so much bigger than we can even conceptualize. We do so much
40:05
therapy at our table at the same like I mean and really
40:11
meaning I mean not that therapy is not meaningful, but when you’re in the office and you’re seeing clients in and out, it’s it’s it’s real hard to see the
40:18
movement or the progress at times. Um, but we still very we never take our
40:24
therapy hat off. We’re still therapists even in the creation. Even when we we still use our play therapy schools
40:30
skills, not schools skills when people come to the table. I mean, we still are absolutely implementing everything we
40:37
went to school for that was kind of natural to us anyways. Um, through Mama
40:42
Owls, it’s just not in Monday through Friday 8 to 5. People ask us all the time like, “Do you miss seeing clients?”
40:49
you know. No, because the therapeutic space that we still get to hold with people and that that kind of sacredness
40:56
of um just human connection and the way that people can relate to our sculptures
41:03
and our artwork. Um and like you were saying earlier like what it means to them is sometimes different than what it
41:08
means for me and that um brings something up in them, you know, and so then you know here we are at the table.
41:15
Let’s just hold that space for a you know. Yeah. Well, I want to finish on a on a story to wrap that up. So, Alicia,
41:22
you you had mentioned that you created a sculpture and you had asked if I would name the sculpture. Well, little did
41:29
here’s the here’s the power in attunement. Okay. Right. Because clearly you had already in mind, I’m going to
41:34
ask Lisa to name the sculpture without without any discussion that there was even going to be a sculpture. You didn’t
41:40
create it for me. It was literally this thing that you created, but you were like, I’m just going to ask Lisa to name
41:46
this thing. Right. Little did you know that the image you created and the
41:52
posture of the woman in the sculpture was the posture that I had been working on
42:00
embodying in my own healing journey that was naturally arising in me through my
42:06
yoga practice and was the image that was coming to mind. Literally that was the
42:13
image and posture of me in me particularly when I was in camel pose in
42:18
yoga for those of you who know camel pose and when you sent me the image which was like hey I just created this
42:25
new piece will you name it you without even knowing you had created a sculpture
42:31
of my healing journey at that time. Wild. I literally have chills right now. That’s wild. But it’s like that that’s
42:38
the right. You helped me heal through a sculpture and there wasn’t even a
42:43
conversation about about it. It just was there was just a resonance about it.
42:50
Wow. That’s that’s amazing. What an honor. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for tapping into whatever you tapped
42:57
into and whatever whatever like was nudging as you go, ask please name this one. Ask please name this one. like
43:03
whatever that was. Thank you for Thank you for Thank you for trusting that nudges all the time. Sometimes we’re
43:09
like So before I wrap this up, will you let
43:15
our listeners know where they can um learn more about you, where they can see your sculptures, where they can order
43:21
order sculptures, all that good stuff. Yeah. Our website is our name, Mama Alice Minis, and that’s Mama with an O.
43:30
M A. And then you can type all that into uh Facebook and Instagram and you’ll
43:35
find us there as well. Great. Mama owls minis.com a.com.
43:42
Beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful. So last uh last words from either of you. Do you
43:50
have a last a final message for our listeners about the creative process or just something that you want to share?
43:56
Just do it. Yeah. I know that’s Nikes, but it really is just the truth. like
44:01
just go in the direction you’re being called and it’s going to look like this initially. It just really is this little
44:08
pink monster the little the little pink thing sculpture. If she had said we’re going to build a business on this I
44:13
would have said no we’re not honey just keep making that. So I think just just
44:18
get started just do it. Whatever creativity looks like for you whatever that journey is you have to get on the
44:25
path. Yeah. I mean, I think um just and when it specifically when it comes to
44:31
art, make make bad art. Yeah. Make bad art. And what I mean by that is
44:38
just make the art and all of the bad along the way. All of the goblet
44:44
tornadoes and the little pink monsters. Like those were the stepping stones to where we are now, you know? So, just
44:50
just make make bad art. Just do it. Make bad art. Hope that there we go. Our
44:56
final words. Yeah. Love it. Well, thank you both. This was
45:02
such an enjoyable conversation. Super inspiring. Love to hang out with both of you. Thank you. Thank you. It’s been
45:09
awesome. Yeah. Thank you. And listeners, you’re the most important toy in the playroom. So, be yourself,
45:16
unleash the creativity, and uh take care of yourselves wherever you are in the
45:21
world. Until next time, everyone. [Music]
