[Music] Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Lessons
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from the Playroom podcast. I am so excited that I have
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back with me a former guest, one of my favorite people on the planet. And by
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the way, her last episode that we did together, which was on merging u uh play
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poly bagel theory and sensory processing um has been one of the number one
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downloaded episodes in the history of the lessons from the playroom podcast. So as I’m saying that listeners, if you
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have not listened to it, go check it out as well as uh thank you for um being a
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part of today’s conversation. So, who do I have with me? I have with me the um
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internationally acclaimed amazing Kim Barthell. So, Kim is a Canadian
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occupational therapist, multidisciplinary speaker, mentor, best-selling author who is active in
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supporting people in many contexts globally. She’s passionate about understanding neurobiology, complex
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behavior, trauma sensitive, and neurodeiverse affirming practice, sensory processing, movement,
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attachment, and mental health. In 2019, she was honored to receive the award of
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merit from the Canadian Association of Occupational Therapy. And with over 41
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years of practice and helping people to be their best selves, she’s still learning every day. Her overall mission
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is to support the conscious evolution of the human spirit. Hello Kim. And Kim, can we just say you also just got
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another award. Well, I have to breathe first.
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Yes. But I have something to say to you before in that uh you are also one of my
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favorite people in the planet. A and uh this when I speak to Lisa, my energy um
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elevates about six octaves and and so my general slow and low uh vocal tone uh
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follows that excitement. So I I’m very excited to to be able to talk to you
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today. Yeah. and coming back. Yes, I did have the um honor of receiving an award
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uh given to me by attach uh and it was for innovation in the
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treatment of children with trauma and unique needs and uh thank you for saying that. Well, yes, honor you that you you
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deserve many many honors. Many many. So, we’re going to talk about
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psychosensory interventions. So listeners, part of what I love about
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um Kim’s expertise, so Kim, I’m just gonna keep bragging about you.
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Um as an occupational therapist, Kim, you have
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this unique and beautiful understanding that goes far beyond what’s just happening in
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the body. So you very much take an interdisciplinary approach to
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understanding what’s happening. So not only are you so informed by literally
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what’s happening in the body, but you also have a beautiful understanding of what’s the connection between the mind
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and the body and the spirit and the body and all of these different components of
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the self. And I think that that interdisciplinary
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um mindset is incredibly missing in the world of play therapy. It’s missing in
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how we are trained. We are typically trained to look through maybe one or two lenses, but we are not really trained to
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look in a really really holistic way. when we are looking at our client,
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looking at their symptoms, getting curious about their psychology, their physiology. And so I am so excited about
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this conversation where we can look at psychosensory and this interplay between
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two really important parts of our being and
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yeah understanding that how does that look from an intervention perspective.
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So, thank you for the um the wholeness that you bring.
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As is the case with you, it’s often brought to us by our patients, our
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clients. Yeah. And uh it’s interesting that you say that
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about play therapy because my greatest reference of a play therapist is you.
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And I I think of you as also
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very holistic in your mind. And so I I guess we have a joint
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mission in broadening uh our professions and people who people who support
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people. Right. Exactly. Really in their capacity to think uh in a more broad
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fashion uh of the human being in front of them. Really psychosensory is a name that I
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gave to a thought process that came about by a
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client who uh I treated when I was in my late
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20s. When I first graduated from university, I was a devote of Dr. Gene
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Ays. So sensory integration for those of you who don’t know occupational therapy,
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one of our claims to fame in OT is our understanding of how
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sensation impacts daily function. And uh right out of university uh
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sensory integration was my love. And at the time because I’m a
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junior senior uh now I call myself a junior senior at the time sensory
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integration wasn’t very known in Canada. And so the idea that the fluffies in
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your socks or the elastic in your underwear or the sound of people chewing
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could be a variable in how you felt in your body or be disregulated in your
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behavior or experience mental health related issues. That was completely
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foreign and unknown at the time. And in Winnipeg, where I was living,
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which is very cold in the wintertime, we started a project uh in our province to
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deliver services for children who were living on the street. And it was the first of its
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kind uh especially in Western Canada. And the creator of this program came to
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me one day, I think it was 28, and said, “We want you to work in our program.”
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And I said, “Well, I I work with kids with autism. What am I going to do? What
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am I going to do with kids who uh experience trauma or have a different
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context?” And this person said, “Well, we we don’t know what you’re going to do. You’re going to figure it out.” And
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I was very um keen. I’m always keen to learn and try new things. So there was
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this kiddo who was uh crystal he was born to a mom who was crystal meth
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addicted and his mom overdosed when he was 3 weeks old. And his caregivers were his
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siblings who were 8, 11, and 13. And these four kids lived homeless on
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the street of Winnipeg for eight years, unknown to our uh child welfare
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system at the time. To me, that’s inconceivable. And this little guy, he
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stole a chocolate bar at the 7-Eleven and was brought into care. And now he’s
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in our program and he is in a classroom. And I’ll never forget the
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teacher standing in front of me with her hands on her hips saying, “Get this kid
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out of my classroom. He is a feral animal.” “And you occupational therapists,” she said
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with a little wave in her head. “You, you know, you talk about all these things you do with sensation that uh
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change behavior. This kid needs to be on rolin. He has ADHD.” This is what she
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said. And I was like naive and I had something to
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prove. So she says to me, “Take him to your magic lab, which is a sensory gym,
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and do something with him.” So this little guy came with me to the sensory
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room, and he bolted in there. Intense, intense level of
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activity, intensity in his eyes. And we had a very tall climbing wall. I
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think it was almost 12 feet high. Uh because it was a gym. And there
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was a foam pit at the bottom. And he climbed the climbing wall and he turned
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around and he fell face first into the foam pit without even
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putting out his arms to protect himself just like a
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skydiver. And Dr. Heirs taught us the child guides treatment. They their brain knows what
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they need and you set up the environment and the child will treat themsself. This
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is what I learned. So I was a passive
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observer on the mat. I sat on the mat watching this
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repetitive climb crash over and over again. And in about 20 minutes, this
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kiddo was lying on the mat with his hands behind his head. And he was quite
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present and contemplative looking in his face. And I was very proud of myself as
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if I’d done anything at all because of the shift in
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state. And I said, “Oh, look at what propriceptive input does.” and the vestibular system has
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informed his nervous system and he is present. Then my big learning experience
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came. This 8-year-old boy left the gym, went up to the unit where he was living
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at the time and tried to hang himself. and he didn’t
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succeed and was able with such elegance over time able to communicate what
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happened that in that experience of climbing and crashing and
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climbing and crashing he the words I would put to it landed in his
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body and in that landing came
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reexperiencing and memory This was a long time ago, long before we used this
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language. And I was terrified. Terrified that I had done something
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wrong. Thinking that the sensory information was the wrong thing to
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do. And for the next 15 years in that particular environment,
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uh I happened to have the luxury of working with a psychotherapist, play therapist and we
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collaborated and I saw my job at the time was to watch the
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body while my colleague made sense out of the experience. And of
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course we learned from each other. And this was the beginning of me seeing how
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when the body is available, the dots line up to the
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mind to allow the child to make more sense out of the experiences that
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they’ve had. and and that that story kind of captures the feeling of why that
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name was given to these concepts. And a beautiful ending to that
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story is that that young child is now social worker in that program. Wow. And
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uh you know still talks about the the importance of embodiment. Yeah.
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So this is where I think you and I share our interest is this meeting of what’s
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happening within. Yes. Both interosceptively uh in connection to the
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world in connection to the self. Yeah. And uh the feelings and the thoughts
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that go with that. Yeah. Such a beautiful story.
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um emotional in many ways, but emotional from the from the almost like the um the
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remembrance or the recognition of just how significant the body is and how it’s
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often not paid attention to. That’s that’s where the emotion comes up for me when I think about your story and I’m
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reflecting on like play therapists. Play therapists, we aren’t typically trained
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in the body, you know, we look at the play as the the play as the carrier of
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the information, which it does carry information, but so does the
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body. And so this this beautiful interplay of but if if you like there’s
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two places to look. There’s more than two places to look. But as play therapists, if we’re just focusing on
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the play, we really are potentially missing where the story lives.
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Because the story doesn’t live in the plastic dollhouse or the wooden
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dollhouse, right? The story doesn’t live in the puppet. The story doesn’t live. It’s an expression of the story, but
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that’s not where the story lives, right? The story lives in the body. That’s how I like to think of it.
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Well, I know that you and I have had the chance to collaborate. Mhm. We have. And
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when we watch play, yes, there are different pieces like different spokes on the
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bicycle wheel of holism that you and I would see things like I would look at what is
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happening at the pelvic floor, right? How is the child’s alignment in their
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body? Do they collapse in their diaphragm? Do they uh increase the
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tension in their shoulder? What happens in their jaw? Um that while they are
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engaged in the play activity, I actually know you look at these things too. But while they’re
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engaged in their play activity, you are able to track simultaneously.
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Yeah. Not only the information, the psychological information, but the
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accompanying signals of state that are communicated
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through the postural system, uh, through the hands, through the eyes, through the orienting response.
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There’s so much simultaneous information that’s sort of alongside or
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integrated with what the child is is doing at the same time.
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Should we share a little bit about the case that we worked on together? That
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would be fun. Let’s talk about that and when we can talk about it from the different perspectives. we can talk about some of the pieces that you
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observed and what I was observing simultaneously and we can just sort of
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unpack that a little bit. Mhm. So, uh, for our listeners, there was a mom and her son
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who made the journey out to Boulder, Colorado, actually, and agreed to do a
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full weekend experience with Kim and I. Kim also came down from Boulder. And uh
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Kim, we went into this not knowing a whole lot, having no plan attached to
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this, but this child was struggling. There were some concerns. And we really
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went in with this place of curiosity of let’s see what emerges and then let’s
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see what you see. Let’s see what I see. And then and then let’s just work with what emerges as it as it emerges in
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real, you know, in real time. Uh so that’s just to set the stage for uh for
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us to talk talk this through. Uh so where should we start? Well, I think what you’ve said is actually really
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important for listeners because none of this work is a planned
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work. When this attitude of curiosity that you just spoke about is not just a
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mental curiosity but a physiological curiosity within
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you and I know that you speak about this all the time in the examples that you
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give around I feel you in me. Yeah.
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that this attuned state that is part of the curiosity of
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our intention is actually comes back to the question of how do I show up as the
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clinician as my best self so that I can be a
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receptacle that is available to the information in my own body in connection
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with you. And so this is very different than coming with an agenda
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or a formalized assessment uh which I think can be frustrating at
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first when you’re trying to learn these ideas that there is a a dual attent
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attention what’s going on with the child and then when there’s you me the parent
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and the child right there’s uh this collaborative feel that goes on that is
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a synergy between four nervous systems and uh is quite a an elegant dance. So,
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I think it’s important for the listener to hear that this creation, although it sounds
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like a ah we’re just going to show up and see. Uh-uh. It’s a lot more of here
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we are with a full uh intentionality of bringing our whole
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selves together uh with a very powerful curious
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stance. Curiosity allows information to come in that judgment would not.
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Judgment would not. Yeah. So I want to speak to
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already I want to say a little bit about intention from my perspective like what what for in my mind is there an like is
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there an ultimate intention like what’s the what’s what what’s the what what am
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I intending other than to be present and to be curious because there is a something in there for for me and I’m
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curious if this is similar for you and for me the intention is ultimately ely
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around connection. So this this sort of larger
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aim although I don’t want to make it sound like a goal but like this larger aim of how do I
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follow what’s unfolding on the journey to support myself and my
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client in being able to be connected to themselves wholly in this present
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moment. Because I really believe that so much of
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uh what we experience is feedback that we’re not connected to
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ourselves wholly in this present moment.
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Wow. I mean, you’re describing healing really and one of the beautiful um quotes that
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I love is Jill Bolt Taylor who wrote my stroke of insight. She talks about the
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90 secondond rule which is emotions the physiology of
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emotions lasts no more than 90 seconds. However, if we bypass,
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suppress or skip out or
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dissociate in those or think and analyze in those moments of of
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experiences that neurochemistry can live in us for 90 years. Yeah. And so
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connection allows that body and this is my example of my story of my kid who I’m
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going to call David. If I had done that differently, there would have been
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relationship and connection so that he could feel his
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experience in a new way in a co-regulated, supportive,
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present, comfortably uncomfortable place. So just to highlight what you said, his
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his body knew what it needed to do to help him connect with himself. However,
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the moment that he became present with himself, it was so
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big that there wasn’t a container for it. And and I’m hearing you say that then
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the part of our our our work or the work in that moment with David if you could have done like a redo would have
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been that intervention was beautiful and for there to have been
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something to receive him connecting to himself when he landed into his body.
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Yes. And that’s relationship right but connected connected relationship
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available. I’m with you. I feel you. I see you. Relationship safety. Safety.
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And enough that was really the crux of what we found with our little person
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that we worked with together. So there from a from you know his his experience
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there was some birth trauma. there were some things early on and he had not
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landed into his body. So, let’s talk about how you knew that and how I knew
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that as the play and the therapy started to
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unfold. The first thing that I look for is how the child actually moves through
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space. Mhm. And that means can they can they stay still?
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And staying still is not in the mind. It’s can their body hold on and stay put
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against gravity. And our little friend, he struggled with that. He had to lean
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against things uh constantly shift his weight. um when he would talk there
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would be excessive emotion and uh emotion and motion
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and most people might identify that or call that an ADHD profile and labels
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don’t help me. I’m I’m more curious about what is the functional adaptive
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response of what that is doing for that nervous system in order for it to be as
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competent as it can be in this moment. Yeah. So, I was tracking a lot of his uh
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postural movements uh and how they were aligning or not aligning with what
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he was saying, with what he was sharing with us. and how often the more
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emotional the topic or the more um evocative the topic, the more his
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postural system would have fallout in it. And we were I was looking for that
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across the time that we were there. I remember his body would collapse. He it
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was really hard for him to sit upright. that there was you almost like his his
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midsection was loosey goosey um wasn’t able to like you said hold his
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body wasn’t able to hold with gravity and yes okay so that was one of the
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things that you were looking for one of the pieces that I was looking for was how he
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played did he play what are some clues around
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emotional age and then back to what we had talked
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about before what is the feeling that is arising in the room in relationship with
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him. So, so what is his nervous system trying to communicate with my nervous
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system, with his mother’s nervous system, with your nervous system, and attuning to the information in his
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nervous system. And a couple things that I noticed were that he didn’t know how
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to play. He he wasn’t in um you
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know, sort of imaginary thinking. He was very
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concrete. Uh he didn’t have play
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flexibility. He did not know how to play in a way that would be considered sort
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of appropriate and I don’t really like that word, but you know what I’m saying terms of milestones for his age and his
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typicality as would typically be studied. So he’s his play already
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indicated to me that he was not his developmental age that emotionally he
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was much much much much younger. So what was deceiving about that for me
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was his vocabulary. Oh yes. And his social engagement skills were that of an
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adult. Mhm. And he he was very
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uh attuned connect like he wanted to connect
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um very very pleasing. Very pleasing. Yeah. In his nature. And his
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intellectual capacity was very high. Yes. And so there’s that split between
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conceptualization and topics that he could share and talk about with a lot of uh social finesse
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that didn’t match you know both what was going in the body and what was going on in his play.
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Exactly. So the feeling that was arising in the room was one of we are we are in
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the intellectual mental realm. we are talking about it. We are you know
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intellectualizing it. We are we are very in our head and from a sensation
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perspective. So in synergic play therapy we call this the offering right. Um it was actually
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challenging as the clinician to notice my own body. So I found myself wanting
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to join him at the intellectual realm. So uh you know and
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that’s what happens is the the nervous system and the protective pattern offers
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information so others can feel what’s going on in the nervous system and what those protective patterns are. So just
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noticing in my own physiology, wow, I’m noticing this continual pull to go upward in me to go
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up. Where are my legs? Where is my body? Where are my feet? So feeling that
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helped me feel that there wasn’t a connection with the
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body. So we could observe it in his body that he wasn’t connected in his body,
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but we could feel in the room relationally that he wasn’t connected
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with his body. And his play or lack of
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also helped bring in that insight. Oh, we are much younger. Which also then
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helped us be able to look back and say what happened early on. You know, sort
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of the clues where where should we look? Oh, we have some birth trauma
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here might have contributed to not feeling safe to land in the body.
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Completely. Completely. And you know, one of the things that I remember having to be careful about was getting
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distracted. That that the pull into the dialogue and
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the connection was so uh the word is almost seductive. It was just so
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tempting to just hang out and have a conversation with this guy. Yeah. because he was so charming. That that
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just speaks to it spoke to me of the the strategy that he survives by, right? And it made me
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forget my body. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And then we can bring in the
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element with his mom who also struggled at times to be
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connected to her body. And so here here then is this relational dance between
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mom and son where they’re both trying to be embodied and there’s a struggle to be
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embodied and both in a sense offering each other the experience of I’m not in
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my body and you could see actually the um the trauma pattern between the two of
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them because mom was also part of the birth right so their their their birth story played out relationally
31:55
between right between the both of them, but it was also a piece then that we got to that we got to work with you know
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there was an amazing variable in this story that the audience needs to hear
32:08
that is just fascinating. Yeah. That this guy is going to be a worldclass
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rock climber. Oh, right. He he is just enamored and needs to go rock climbing
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wall on the wall uh every day. That was here they were visiting you from another
32:27
state and that’s what they had to find in the evening. And what’s so interesting about that the sensation of
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rock climbing is how much you push through your toes. Uhhuh. Which is such
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a big part of the birthing process and the sense of activation
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of the inner core which is what keeps your posture up against gravity. Yeah.
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So, that little piece of evidence also uh gave me this, oh my gosh, you know,
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what what keeps him here in some organized fashion is his
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love of of an activity that he’s repeating over and over again that just didn’t quite maybe uh suffice in the
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very first attempt. Yes. Exactly. that innate wisdom of the body to pull you
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towards what it knows that it that it needs. Yeah.
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Um I’m guessing our listeners would love us just to keep unpacking and unpacking and unpacking like what happened and
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like where did this go and this you know in this whole thing. I want to give a a
33:42
quick sort of you know where where we ended up going and then um and then just
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highlight again this this this interplay that we’re talking about between um the
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mind and the body and and all of that. So from a play
34:00
perspective there was an important piece I I just mentioned that he didn’t know how to play yet. And so in terms of like
34:08
meeting the client where they’re at, there was an unfolding that had to take place. He had to be born at first, so to
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speak, right? He had to come back into his body first before we could go into the world
34:22
of emotion. And I think that’s an important piece because a lot of play therapists want to jump straight into
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the world of emotion, but he’s not in his body enough to be able to even
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regulate through those. which is why when a emotion would arise, he he
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literally couldn’t hold it. His body couldn’t hold it was too much or he’d start talking about something from an
34:45
intellectual perspective or crack a joke or something like that. And so there was this piece around allowing him to land
34:52
in his body first and then as he’s landing in his
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body slowly expanding his window of tolerance for the sensation and energy
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that then he was experiencing in his body. And then as we did that there was
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a natural shift that began to happen in the play. And I think that’s important
35:15
for play therapists to hear that there really is this developmental progression that happens.
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And I know a lot of play therapists might be thinking, I’ve never tracked like this before. It look, it’s happening in your playroom. Whether you
35:29
know it or not, Kim and I are highlighting something because the body knows, the child knows. You know, if
35:35
you’re allowing an unfolding to happen, there there is a growing up that’s naturally emerging. Um anyway, but I
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just want to name it that was the that was part of the process from my perspective was he had to land first. We
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had to work with the body first before we could work with the emotional world.
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Not from sensation perspective but from a feeling perspective and the play naturally then started to to unfold from
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there. I remember Lisa there was a poignant moment which will really illustrate what you’ve just said where
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he was quite encapsulated uh and contained, you use that word, um
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by a piece of Lycrahu around his body, kind of like a womb and
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he started to cry. Right? This very intellectual presenting happy individual
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landed not only in sensing himself but feeling.
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And the play after that it it just it was almost like a
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flower that opened because it wasn’t something that had to be taught. Yeah.
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It was in him to find and that sort of convergence between
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knowing myself, feeling myself, and lining it up into understanding and
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expression. It kind of all came together like a a swirl. And even as I reflect on it, it
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was pretty incredible how our curiosity and wondering just it just happened in
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front of our eyes. Yeah. Without the agenda. Without the agenda. Without the agenda.
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So Kim, what how can we land? What are the what are the key the
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key places here of what do we want our listeners to land on? What are those key
37:37
pieces? I think the feeling of really the embodied
37:44
clinician which is the thing that you and I uh share in our belief is that the
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more that we feel us, the less cognitive we approach all
37:57
this. Yeah. or the more we integrate that uh wisdom from within us
38:03
with cognition. It’s not one or the other. It’s an integrated approach. So,
38:08
it’s the ongoing discovery of feeling my feelings. You know, when someone says to
38:14
you, well, how are you? And you just describe it, but you
38:19
know when it’s coming from deep within you. Yeah. Versus when it’s just words
38:24
that are coming out of your mouth. Yeah. And so I feel that that’s that’s the key
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to the mastery might be the word of putting
38:38
all these different pieces together. What do you think? I think
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there’s this parallel piece around we’re talking about how there’s wisdom in our clients bodies, but can we also allow
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the wisdom of our own bodies unfold and take us to where we need to go and to
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trust um trust what our body is leading us towards and you know if there’s
39:03
something that our body really wants to experience. Maybe it’s
39:09
dancing. Maybe it’s hanging off the bed upside down. Maybe it’s you just have the urge to
39:16
just grab a bunch of pillows and wrap yourself in pillows. Maybe it’s the urge
39:21
to, you know, you want something from a textural persp. You want to eat
39:26
something with a particular texture. You want you’re like craving something cold.
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It’s like there’s I think sometimes we just we dismiss so much of the signals of our body. I think sometimes we
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dismiss it because sometimes maybe the urges that we have feel childish or
39:44
silly or what would someone think if they came and looked at us and we’re wrapped up in covered in blankets and
39:51
pillows and this and that or shoved ourselves into a corner somewhere or whatever it is. And it’s like um I get
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it that there’s been some social conditioning for us to not listen to our bodies, but can we actually come back
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be curious about what the conversation is that’s happening inward.
40:14
Yeah. So good, Kim. Love my time with you.
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Love my time with you and look forward to what we create in the future.
40:27
Exactly. So listeners, I hope that this conversation has piqu your
40:35
curiosity. Uh and maybe next time you have a session, if you are typically
40:42
just play focused, maybe take some moments of observing the client’s body
40:49
and just becoming curious about what’s the story in the body and what’s the body trying to sh just be curious. Just
40:56
watch. Just observe, right? be curious and uh be curious about your own bodies as well. So, wherever you are in
41:04
the world, you are the most important toy in the playroom. So, take care of yourselves.
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Until next time. [Music]
