[Music] Hi everyone. Thank you once again for
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tuning in and joining me for this episode from the Lessons from the Playroom podcast. I have with me a
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returned guest to talk about a topic that is actually really
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important for us to be discussing and we’re going to unpack it a little bit more. I’m alluding to here the world of
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technology, uh, digital play therapy, uh, the virtual world. We’re going to
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unpack, is that the same, is that different? Uh, but for so many of the children that we work with, this is the
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landscape that they are immersed in. So, I have with me, if you haven’t guessed
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already who my uh who my guest is, um, I have with me Dr. Jessica Stone. Let me
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go ahead and reintroduce you. If you are not familiar with Jessica, I also
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recommend that you go back and you listen to the past podcast that she and I did together. It will be a beautiful
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sort of adjunct to the conversation that we are going to have today. So Jessica
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is a licensed psychologist, executive coach, uh works in private practice setting. She’s been a practitioner,
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professor, presenter, mentor, and author for more than 30 years. She’s actually one of the most prolific authors that I
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know, everyone. Uh Dr. Stone’s interest in therapeutic digital tools specific uh
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specifically using virtual reality tablets and consoles and AI has
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culminated in clinical mental health use and research for mental health, medical, and crisis settings. She’s the
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co-creator of the virtual Santre app for iPad and the virtual Santre for virtual
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reality. She’s the past chief psychology officer for Ascendant VR, is a member of
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various boards, serves as an affiliate of the East Carolina University College of Education Neurocognition Science
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Laboratory. Jess, thank you so much for joining me
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once again for this conversation. Absolutely. I’m happy to be here and I
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am I’m giggling just a little bit because I’m thinking of when we met last. It was the beginning of COVID. It
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was all the chaos. It was can you hear me? Do we have a good enough connection?
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Is this working? Like so many things have changed. Here we are, not even
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thinking anything of any of those pieces because we’ve just been doing this for so long virtually and um and the comfort
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level is is amazing. I It’s just mind-blowing to think of how far we’ve
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come in some of these ways. Yes. Well, um agreed. And I think we can use that
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also to understand the world that children are immersed in too because
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this virtual world if we want to talk about it in that way or the world of technology and again we’re going to
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unpack that here in a second is um is their world. I mean that’s their that’s their world whether they’re they’re on a
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phone whether they are on a computer whether I mean that’s just that is that
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is the world that they are so immersed in. And I think that as mental health clinicians, we need to wrap our mind
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around the fact that that’s not going anywhere. And how how do we actually
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embrace it? Which as I’m saying that, I’m sure listeners, some of you might like just cringe when I just said that,
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but so that’s why I have you here, Jess, to help us um think of think about this.
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Yes. Yes. I mean, you just said a lot of things. We could go in a lot of different directions, but I think the
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bottom line, the main thing that I want to pull out of that for the moment is
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that we our clients are digital natives. Digital natives are going into their 30s
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now. So like even if you’re seeing some adults, a lot of the adults we’re seeing
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now are also digital natives. And that that’s a term that was brought about by Mark Pransky.
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Um he’s actually written some really amazing things. So that is an author I would suggest people look into. But he
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coined the term to talk about people for whom their world has always included
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some digital tools. And so they don’t know life without it. And while we as
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clinicians especially those of us like myself uh who have been around for a long time seasoned
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uh I suppose is a nice way to say we’re aging ourselves a little bit. Jess, I
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know. No, I I I actually don’t know how old you are, so I’m not even gonna include you in that, but my age for
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sure. Um, is is that we often are saying, why would we include these
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things in therapy and younger generations who are digital natives are saying, why wouldn’t we? Because it’s
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part of our lives. And so we have this this in some situations we have this
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disconnect that is happening. And if we back away from the digital portion of it, if we just think about having a
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disconnect in our lives and our understanding of our clients lives,
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that to me is a fundamental concern. So what do we do about that? And the
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fact that that the digital we could we could talk about myself included we could talk about the pros and the cons.
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There are definitely cons. There are concerns. There are things like we can oh remember when you know remember I
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remember when we didn’t have answering machines. Remember when you just weren’t available?
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Remember when no one knew where you were and couldn’t track you and and you just were home when it started to get dark?
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Do you remember that? Yes. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Like we can we can be nostalgic. We can remember those. We can
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miss things. We can all of it. Yes. We can have all of those conversations. I’m
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not sitting here saying everything about all of this stuff is is rosy and you know, butterflies and unicorns,
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but and it’s not going away. As a matter of fact, we’re going further and further in that direction. And we have clients
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who are digital natives who don’t understand why we wouldn’t include these things.
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and we have our own growth. That’s one of the things that’s so fantastic about this field is that we continue to grow
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throughout our careers. And some of that is is a little more painful than others
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when it doesn’t align with who we are and how we are in the world, but I would say it’s not about us. Right. Well, and
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then and then that dissonance that happens inside the clinician because the digital space isn’t comfortable for
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them. So, how does then the clinician join or facilitate therapy when it does
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it feels foreign to them to be in that landscape like that’s I don’t know how
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to be in that it feels so foreign right absolutely and that’s why when I was formulating what I
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thought were the components critical to digital play therapy
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there’s capability there’s competence there’s congruence and a lot of things
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in there has to do with learning more, doing more within it, understanding it,
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what are the themes, what are the things we can do with it, what are the what are the limits to it? All of those kinds of
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things. And also, it’s a lot of work within ourselves.
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Where are our own lines? Where are the areas where we can learn and we can
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adapt and we can grow? And where are the places where it’s like that is just not
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going to work for me? that is not congruent for me and we can extend that well out of of digital anything and we
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can talk about even some things that will come up. We may not want to work with certain populations. How do we
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manage that? Typically, we either figure out how we can ethically and
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appropriately or we refer them out because we understand that that’s outside of our bounds. And so I I feel
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like there are a lot of parallels in in this work too.
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So for um for the listeners, we’re talking about the you know u the digital
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space. Can we unpack like what are we talking about?
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Really good question. Like I think there’s a lot of confusion in that and what I can share with you is
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what I have come to in being in this space for a long time. that doesn’t mean that someone else won’t define it
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differently and just add to the confusion but I’ll try to be as clear as I can which is one of the number one
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things that I hear people confusing confabulating all the things
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is is virtual like in the play therapy space particularly virtual play therapy
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and digital play therapy and virtual play therapy
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and not just by my definition. There are articles out there and everything. Virtual play therapy is
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really surrounding the platform. So whether you use Zoom or any of the other
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companies, it is that we are meeting with each other through this virtual platform. We could be doing any number
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of activities. We could be doing drawing, you know, like paper, pencil,
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crayon, whatever kind of drawing. We could be doing a virtual something. We could be uh scavenger hunt like all the
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things that people do. It could be that the clinician has sent a little care package with, you know, some items in it
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for us to interact with. But all of that is done through a virtual platform. We
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are not in the same physical space. And that is really the bottom line of what defines the virtual. The digital really
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has more to do with the tools that you’re using and that they are digital in nature and that encompasses all kinds
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of things as you were reading my bio like it’s it’s 2D. It’s which is uh you
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know like your mobile devices, your tablets, your phones, things like that. It’s web based which would be on your
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computer when you’re actually typing in you know a a a web address and using it
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there. um Steam, consoles, handheld, Nintendo, Xbox, like VR, any of those
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kinds of things. So, digital tools and that can be in the same physical space
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or it can be virtual. Yes. I I love that distinction. That was so beautiful. Um
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because I think I want to circle back to what you were talking about in terms of skill set and now you’re really getting
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into a nuance skill set because there’s the skill set of virtual but then
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there’s also a skill set related to each digital tool as well. So as I’m hearing
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this just please correct me if I’m not hearing this correctly but the way I’m interpreting this it would be similar
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for a play therapist to say okay so there is a unique skill set for sandray
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work there’s a unique skill set for art artwork there’s a unique skill set for
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uh you know EMDR process right all these and and each one of these sort of tools
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within the therapy space requires its own skill set. My experience with
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digital tools is that some of them are vastly different than
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others and require different skill sets and different understandings in order to
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engage with the different tools and then also being in person there’s a skill set
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and being virtual there’s a different skill set. So am I am I understanding
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that correctly as you’re as you’re saying that? Yes. And yep, I think underarching
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is the so not overarching but under it under fundamental underneath is that you
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bring your theoretical foundation your belief about how change happens about
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the process of the therapeutic interaction engagement and relationship
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and you bring that to any of these things. So whether you’re in the same
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physical space, you’re doing it virtually, or you’re in andor incorporating any of the skill sets that
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you just listed, not just digital, but any of those, you’re still bringing yourself as a clinician to all of that.
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So the way you’re looking at these interactions that are happening with your client
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really would be pretty darn consistent through all of all of those different ways. with digital, the skill set and
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the differences that you talked about for me fall much more under the hardware
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differences. So the hardware is the actual unit that you’re using. Like I
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just listed off a whole bunch of different units that you could use, but the programs themselves, there are
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millions of them out there. Yeah. So nobody knows all of them, you know, like it’s just crazy. They’re coming out
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every day. hundreds if not thousands of new things coming out. So
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as a whole, if we just talk about the programs and we can put slashgames, they’re not all games. So I want to say
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programs, but I know we typically say games. So if we if we look at those, I
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would say there’s such a bridge between what we do traditionally in play therapy, the themes we’re looking at,
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the the different components that we pay attention to, how did those two
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characters or organisms or whatever, how did they interact or they didn’t? What
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what is the emotional content? What is the interactional content?
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What’s the narration or not? Like what’s being created or not? How is it being
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approached? The frustration tolerance, all those therapeutic powers of play that we talk about all the time from
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Schaefer. Like all of those pieces, that is the stuff that we’re looking at
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attending to in these in the software portion of the digital. The hardware is
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more like which button do I push? how do I make my character move? Like
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those kinds of things I think fall more into the skill set whereas the software
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is much more the skill set we already have as play therapists. So just as you’re describing it and
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you’re you’re you know really this beautiful understanding of um
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really another entry point. That’s what I’m hearing. another entry point to to to to join the child in in a way that’s
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deeply meaningful deeply meaningful for them. And why do you think the play
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therapy field as a whole and even individual theories has not
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um adopted or embraced the idea of
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digital? Why do you think that they there there aren’t because there really aren’t you
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don’t you don’t hear a lot of training. You don’t see a lot of trainings going on. Um even different theories of how
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would this theory look look through you know their lens at interacting in this
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space like what do you think’s happening for us as play therapists? Well, first I’ll say I think the the theoretical
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foundation and approach that has uh adopted adapted and included uh digital
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the most is Ed Lyan and and so if people do want to look
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into something that is a little bit more established in this realm that would be a great place to start. Um had amazing
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conversations with Dr. Terry Cotman about that and I know she incorporates it into the work. So there’s that piece.
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But as far as the rest of your question, so my brain really goes into two main
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categories of the why there hasn’t been a wider adoption. And the first and
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foremost that I see is that
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even though we don’t take the hypocratic oath, we live by that. We don’t want to do any harm. We want to be best by our
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clients. And so if there is something that we
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even might think there is some value in or we’re not sure or whatever, we want to know that there is solid evidence,
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reason, experience, foundation, structure, all the things to what we’re
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going to use. And and so I think that’s a big part is we don’t want to do any
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harm and I respect that wholeheartedly and and I think that is that’s why I talk about we need to be capable, we
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need to be competent, um etc. So I think that’s a big piece.
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And then the other big piece that I think is it comes into this is it can be
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overwhelming. I just listed a whole bunch of hardware
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options. Like, if you don’t know how to use any of those, I talked to people,
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play therapists who don’t know how to get their photos off their phone. Can you imagine being like, “Here,
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here’s this complicated unit with all these buttons and all these directionals you have to understand in order to even
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do the most basic things.” I think that it can be very overwhelming in terms of
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of their own comfort with the use and then there are so many different
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programs to choose from and so many directions you can go in like and and
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the trends right that our clients bring in. We’ve all heard of Fortnite most
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likely like for a while there everything was Fortnite and then everything you know like it just goes in these the
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Roblox and that one’s still around in a big way. Not that Fortnite isn’t but like we have these trends. So that’s the
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other thing once we feel like oh I’ve got this one down like I get this
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another one. Um for me that can that can throw me a little bit too. It’s like,
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“Oh, I haven’t heard of that game.” And now every single client’s coming in and talking about it, and now I now I have
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learning to do. The great thing is is I can watch YouTube videos before I even
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try to play it. I’m like, “Oh, what is this about?” I really try to think through
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what is the meaning this has to my client. So, there are things that I bring in and there are things that the
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client brings in. And and so the things that the client brings in, what does it mean to them? Why are they drawn to
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this? What is their role in it? If it’s a team, what’s their role in that team?
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What should they get out of being part of that team? Um, what type of play game
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play is it? And what are they attracted to? They really like to figure things out like part to whole or or step by
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step, like multi-sequential tasking, and they’re just love that. they just think that that’s the most fun thing. And then
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reaching these goals, which are often side quests or main quests, like those
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are things I’ve been paying attention to and I’m sure all of we us have been paying attention to in children’s play
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throughout my entire 30 plus year career. We we were just applying it in different ways, but I’m I’m bringing it
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in to figure out what does this mean to my client. If it’s something I’m bringing in, like I’m suggesting maybe
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this would be a good thing to play or I even just have it available to play, I
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have vetted that. I have gone through a process of watching it, playing it,
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analyzing it to try to figure out what do I think is the therapeutic value. Yeah. That this brings. It’s interesting
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when I had when I was sharing for me this idea of a skill set related for me
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there is the hardware piece but another component is what you’re touching on is that um there there’s
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you know each game if you want to say game or you were saying program there’s
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there are themes you know there there sort of themes in it there’s um they
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even each have their their limitations also and what they’re able to to do. And
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again, not in terms of the hardware piece, but just in terms of the journey or what, you know, what it what what it
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what it can bring up. And so, I love that you name that because that for me is one of the most curious parts is the
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what about this is so interesting for the client. What about this is
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reflecting their inner world? what what about this has such a high resonance for
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them that they are immersing themselves in it because it’s just that interesting to them you know is it an emotional
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component I said is it a there’s an interest in intellectual component that’s just it’s just it’s feeding their
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intellectual curiosity and um I find that completely f um uh fascinating um
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when we start looking at the different just the the different opportunities and
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the different things that kids bring in and that they’re interested in. Yes, I agree. And the pla one of the places
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that I find happens often and is
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fascinating for me is when there is an inongruence between their daytoday
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way they are in the world and way they manage themselves in the world.
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a discrepancy between that and how they manage things in whatever program. Doesn’t matter which
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program it is. A like you know just a lowhanging fruit kind of example is that
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they they are quiet. They don’t really interact with a lot of people in their
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day-to-day life. They they don’t really put themselves out there. They’re not
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trying to achieve or figure things out in any overt way. And then they go into
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a program and they are killing it. They are they’ve got it out. They have the
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entire their parents are like they can’t remember anything and yet they go in and they know exactly where every single
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thing on that map is. I’ve played the game a hundred times. I did not know that thing was there. Yeah. I I had no
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idea. Right. So So what is that? Yeah. Why why in this environment can they be
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just be in a in such a different way and and and conduct themselves? It can
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translate into self-esteem and how they feel about who they are and what they
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can do and all of that. Why in this environment is that so different than this environment? And I was taught so
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long ago and I imagine we all have been is that when you have different environments that are eliciting
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different components whatever they are behaviors you know all the things
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that’s an important thing to understand more about because let’s say in this
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example I just gave if one of the things that we want to work toward in our
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treatment goal is that this child can exhibit those things in their day-to-day life.
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If we can uncover and discover what unlocks that in this environment and
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then understand those components enough where we can translate into other environments that could be huge for this
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client and their family and you know all the ripple effect. Yeah. I’m curious,
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how do you work with parents and caregivers who have a
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judgment or are bringing their child into therapy and there’s a there’s a judgment about their child’s interest in
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the digital world. How do you work with that? So I will say firstly that I will
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acknowledge that most likely a portion of my clients the percentage a
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portion of the people who come to see me they are coming to me because I do do
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this. So there’s probably a a percentage higher of the people who come to me that
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already are comfortable with it because that’s how they got to me. But that doesn’t mean all of my clients. So I
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definitely have had people um caregivers, family members, parents,
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whatever it might be, who have come in with really strong feelings and opinions
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about it. And so it first off my
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I have I have the traditional items whether we’re doing virtual work or we’re doing in the same physical space.
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I stay away from in person because we’re still like even now we’re virtual but we’re still two people and we’re still
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in person. So I have a problem with that term. So that’s why I keep saying in the same physical space because that that’s
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more accurate for me. But whichever is the platform, I have all
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kinds of things available that we can do. I don’t only do digital therapy.
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It’s one of the things that is available to my clients. So, we aren’t by
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definition always going to be doing something virtual. I mean, well, virtual or even digital.
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But when I feel like there is a therapeut therapeutic purpose
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specifically to do with digital and that could be this is your child’s world.
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If I’m to understand why they’re utilizing
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whatever so much like it’s they’re out of balance or this is a constant struggle in your family. If I’m to
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understand that, I need to enter that world with them so that I can understand what it means to them. And I have an
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example for that that I’ll give. And I know we’re getting close on time, so I’ll try to be fast. But um the the
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importance of entering into that so you can really understand what that means for them cannot be downplayed. Then the
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other side is that maybe it isn’t that I have strong opinions on whether or not
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digital should be included, but it really is the client’s world. And so for me to engage with them, it’s an
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important component. So the example that goes along with that is I liken it to
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and this may feel a little bit extreme but I think it it helps to highlight it is that
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if somebody came in and they wanted to explore sexuality
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but that wasn’t my experience and really that wasn’t whatever they were exploring
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really wasn’t something that I was inclined to or even maybe even comfortable with
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if I didn’t feel comfortable talking about that to a point that I thought we would not be able to do the work. I need
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to refer them to somebody who is comfortable with that. If I can step
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outside of myself and ethically and responsibly engage in this even though it’s not my thing, then we can go
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forward in the work. But if we decide no, we’re not going to talk about that.
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we are excluding an entire component of that person’s life in a place where they
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should I don’t even use that word very often but in this case I’m going to use it where they should be able to come in and talk about whatever they need to
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talk about in whatever way they need to talk about it so that they can process through and meet their goals.
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So I liken it to that. If we have clients who come in and this is a big portion of their world, particularly
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children who often are faced with adults who are like m that’s not real. Those aren’t
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your real friends. That isn’t the that’s not important. That all those things. That’s a whole portion of their life
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that is getting excluded. And now guess what? They don’t have any guidance. They
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don’t have ways to work through and process if they had a difficult situation or or things like that because
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they bring it up and it’s like, “Oh, you can’t play that game anymore. You can’t do that thing anymore.” When really it was, how about we look at that as a way
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to navigate so many social skills, so many problemolving skills, critical thinking,
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like that’s the stuff we do in play therapy. Perfect. Perfect opportunities.
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In the other realm, I’ll give the quick example of of a client who
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and um a teenager who’s in our area, we have a lot of people work in the oil
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field. And in the oil field, stereotypically, it’s not all always the the father, but often it’s the father is
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gone for long periods of time. So, you have a lot of families that are essentially single mom families, even
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though they’re married and there is a husband out there. Um, but they’re doing all the day-to-day. They’re doing all
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this stuff on their own. So, in this family, that was the case. The father
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was gone for long periods of time. There was this teenager and there was a three-year-old and mom worked. So, mom
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would come home from work. The three-year-old’s hanging on her leg. She’s trying to make dinner. You we most of us know the scene of trying to manage
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all of that. and the teenager would be sitting at the table doing his homework and he’s hearing the kids screaming and
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he’s got some sensitivity to like all the noises and all the things that are happening. And so he’s started to go
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down to his room. He goes down to and and he’s not in interacting like in the kitchen. His
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mom’s like, you know, doing all the things and he’s basically isolated at the kitchen table doing his thing.
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Nobody really interacting with him. He goes downstairs. He’s a good student. He gets his homework done. After he gets
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his homework done, he gets on a game. He’s part of a team. It’s about the same time every day that he’s playing because
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he got home. He did his homework. Now he’s playing. And guess what? Those kids on that team are asking him, “How’s your
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day? How was that math test you had? What’s happening in your life? How you doing?” Blah blah blah. You know, just
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did you talk to that person you have interest in? You know, like all kinds of things that’s not happening at the
31:40
kitchen table. So, it’s not just about the game. There
31:47
can be so much more to it. And when I worked with the family to try to balance that out, like, hey, your kid feels
31:54
ignored and not part of things and excluded and all that kind of stuff and balanced out the time that was spent.
32:00
Guess what? The time on the computer and in the game went down. But it wasn’t because the game was evil or all the
32:07
things. It was because he had needs that weren’t being met. Exactly.
32:13
Exactly. Yeah. Do you I actually have two questions
32:18
before we wrap this up. Um do you invite the parents and caregivers
32:24
to jump into the world too? Oh, absolutely. I mean, it depends, you know, if it’s therapeutically
32:30
appropriate and what we’re working on and all that kind of stuff, but there are some programs that are just so
32:35
beautiful for that. Like there’s one called Don’t Starve Together that you you and you can put it in endless mode.
32:41
So if someone, you know, messes up or whatever, they just respawn and they can keep playing and and you’re working
32:47
together, guess what? To not starve. Uh and and the way that families can come
32:53
in and and as a as a therapist, seeing the dynamic between them and how they
32:58
come together or they don’t, how they work together or they don’t, that’s really powerful. That turns into more like family therapy. But there are
33:04
plenty of times when it’s still individual therapy, but I’ll invite the parent in so they can see what it is I’m
33:11
talking about, particularly in VR, and particularly if someone has never been in a VR headset. It’s like you just
33:18
can’t explain. You have to put a headset on to even understand it. So, um, I’ll have I’ll have parents I’m thinking of
33:24
one in particular, uh, really perfectionistic kid and all these things. And I’m like, I think this
33:32
would these experiences would be really really powerful for her to to do. Parents like, I don’t really get it. Put
33:38
the headset on, put her in the program. And she was like, oh, now I totally get what you were talking. So, yeah.
33:44
Absolutely. Yeah. Awesome. Okay. So my last question
33:49
about AI for a second. Yes. For a second. Probably just one second.
33:55
Probably more than a second. Where when you think about AI in in the realm of play therapy?
34:02
Yeah. Where where’s your mind go? So I’ve actually done trainings on this. I’ve written an article on it. Uh
34:10
overarching. So before we were underarching overarching now we want to envelop all of this. any thought we
34:17
have, anything in confidentiality is paramount. You’re putting if you’re
34:22
doing anything in a I’m going to call it a public uh large language model. So,
34:28
I’m throwing all stuff out here, but an LLM if you see that it’s large language
34:34
model and that’s basically like the database that I’m just going to use chat GPT. There’s a lot of other ones, but
34:40
I’m just going to do that because it’s lowhanging fruit and people have heard of it. Hello. um is that when you put stuff in there,
34:48
it’s going out into the abyss. So, you’re not going to use anything. No personal health information, no
34:54
identifiable information, no nothing. Period. Like that’s in everything.
34:59
But given that, as a play therapist, the things that I have had the most success
35:04
with are using image generators to have
35:10
a client create a prompt, which is essentially turns into a projective. So,
35:16
they’re telling me the mood, the colors, the details, like all that kind of
35:22
stuff. I don’t really I mean, I care, but I don’t really care what the image is that’s generated. I’m so fascinated
35:30
by the prompt that they’ve even created. What did they include? Then when the image comes out and they’re like, “That’s not quite right. The person’s
35:36
not sad enough or they’re too sad or it’s too dark or it’s whatever telling me so much more information.” So that’s
35:44
just like a snippet. Then there’s storytelling. I don’t know about you, but I have definitely over my career,
35:50
well before anything digital, we’ve I’ve used narrative play therapy over and over and over again. Both in things that
35:56
are already written and also things that we’ve write written together. So this
36:02
way I don’t I don’t know if you had this when you were a kid, but I remember when the books came out that they would like
36:07
put your name in and you open it up and it’s like, “Oh my god, it says Jessica. That’s me.” You know, and it it was a
36:14
big deal. Well, in story im uh generative AI storytelling, you can
36:20
create stories that can have details in it that you want and you can have a very similar experience of like, oh my gosh,
36:27
that’s about me or that’s me or you know whatever. You have to be careful about those identifiable components, but the
36:35
it still stands that it’s really powerful. And then lastly,
36:41
learning especially with with some older kids like middle school and up.
36:48
Sometimes any of us we think that we are coming across a certain way and other
36:54
people don’t perceive us in the way that we think we’re coming across. So I’ve used generative AI to say okay what
37:00
might something typically how would you interact with somebody or something that you would typically say and verbatim
37:08
right and we type it in and ask chatpt or whichever other one you use to analyze the tone and how it might come
37:15
across and a lot of times it gives the feedback that’s different than how the
37:21
person thinks that it’s coming across and then it’s like oh then we play with it how do we tweak it if we say this
37:28
instead of that, how does it come across? And we play with it to the point that that then they can start to see
37:33
where that discrepancy is. And then we talk about AI in like an administrative kind of way. I’ve used it when I can’t
37:42
think of an intervention, you know, if I’m like, okay, I’ve used these interventions all these times. What
37:48
might I be missing? What else could I do? Or what activity might we do? Or something like that. and some of them I
37:55
don’t like at all, but there are gems that come out and I’m like, “Wow, I hadn’t even thought of that.” So, it
38:00
expands for me um a lot of those kinds of things. And then there’s just like
38:06
letter writing that I leave out the personal information, but it’s like boom. Wow, that’s a really impressive
38:11
letter. I probably would have taken a really long time to come up with that.
38:17
So, you know, it saves saves time there. Then there are other times when it actually makes things take longer. So,
38:23
it’s not always about saving time, but it can be more expansive. Like, I’ll be writing something and I’ll give it a
38:29
list. I have all these components that I’m going to include in this project I’m doing. What might I be missing? And then
38:37
it says, “Oh, this, that, or the other thing.” And some of them I just toss out. That’s silly. And then other ones, there I go down the rabbit hole. Down
38:43
the rabbit hole. Exactly. And an an hour later, hour later, I’m like, “Wow, there really
38:48
was value to that. I’ve never even heard of that concept before.” So, if you’re ever reading something I’ve written and
38:54
you’re like, “Where the hell did she pull that out of you?” It might be because I went down that rabbit hole and
38:59
I was like, “Wow, there really is value. I had no idea that that was out there.” So, it for me it’s like how it can
39:06
expand and and then how how we can use it in these projective ways that can be really
39:13
powerful. So, that’s a nutshell. Yep. So, Jess, I don’t know if you have um
39:18
come across this um or not. Uh but I’m thinking about this specifically in
39:24
terms of our teenage clients that we work with. But um I read an article that one of the number one uses globally for
39:33
AIG GPT is uh therapy is therapy and um
39:40
just support and all of that. And so I’m gonna air quote the therapy on that. Yeah. Yeah. We’re we’re definitely gonna
39:45
air quote therapy. Yeah. Exactly. But I think that that’s I think that’s interesting also to bring into the
39:50
therapy conversation with particularly with our teen clients. Are they using it? How are they using it? What kind of
39:58
uh information are they getting? How to uh because I mean we just know there’s a
40:03
there’s a high number of kids that are turning to chat GPT or other trying to
40:09
get relationship advice or trying to sort through life situations and circumstances. And I think it’s
40:15
important for play therapists to be aware that that’s happening because they may not be aware that it’s being used at that level for that and actually is one
40:22
of the number one things globally. Yes. Yeah. And it speaks to the crisis that
40:27
we have that we all talk about all the time of how, you know, we have more need than there is uh care, good care, you
40:34
know, all that. So that that is absolutely and I think it speaks to a really um much bigger Yeah.
40:42
global concern of us not getting our mental health needs
40:48
uh met and then we think of how how do we have those conversations and I agree
40:53
with you that opening that conversation up do you use it for that what is that like what’s your experience been and and
41:00
the most common thing that I hear I know we we read about these horror stories of like this awful advice or dangerous
41:08
stuff even that can happen I would say that that’s going to happen less with
41:13
with certain programs and I can’t list all of them because I don’t know the
41:19
parameters of all of them but I do know in chat GPT that there are things that it will not talk to you about it will
41:25
not allow there are parameters that are put in am I saying they’re perfect no but I’m saying they there there are
41:31
things there so part of it does also depend on the program that the person is using um whether or not you’re going to
41:37
get in a dangerous like awful scary stuff zone But if we’re in just the just
41:43
air quotes, just the like interaction, usually the thing that I hear number one
41:49
is that it feels good for a short amount of time because you say something and
41:55
usually the chatbt is back and it’s like, oh, something really like nice.
42:00
That was a great question. Oh, you’re so you’re so insightful. You’re Yes. Right.
42:06
And and and it stays in that zone. And so at some point you’re like, “But I’m
42:12
not perfect. This isn’t per like are you would you ever give me any any like constructive criticism or anything?” And
42:20
it sort of falls flat after a while because it doesn’t feel real because nobody’s going to just keep coming at
42:26
you with that was so great and that was so insightful. Um, but I’ve put like
42:31
even a sentence in that I like what what about this sentence? How could I change it? and we do and then I put in the
42:36
final sentence and it was like that’s a great sentence and I’m like oh that felt good and then I’m thinking but is it
42:43
because I’m not sure you would tell me if it wasn’t exactly so you know it falls flat at
42:50
some point but I think it speaks to us like if our clients are using that if they’re using it a lot what do they need
42:58
in that and and and how are they not getting that positive in their life and
43:05
how might we get it somewhere else? It’s sort of similar to this the situation
43:10
you shared with the boy that went would leave the kitchen table and go downstairs and and the curiosity of how
43:18
what need was being met there that wasn’t being met at the kitchen table. Great. So what need is chat GPT meeting
43:25
that is not being met in some other way or through other
43:30
relationship or whatever. Yeah. And to me, that’s the crux in all of this.
43:36
Yeah. What are the needs that are being sought, that are being met, that aren’t being met? What are what are the we’re
43:43
we’re drawn to things for a reason. They connect with us for a reason and understanding what that is. That’s where
43:50
the power and that’s where the therapy happens. Whether it’s digital or it’s not. Beautiful.
43:58
Just for individuals that want to hear more about your work, that want to know
44:05
when you do trainings, if you’ll do a training, all of the different things you’re How many books have you written
44:11
or been a part of? Just out of curiosity. 46. Yeah, I was like, exactly.
44:17
I told you everyone, she’s one of the most prolific authors that I know. So, yeah. 46. Um, how can people find you?
44:25
I think the best way is to come to my website, which is just my name, and I’m sure you’ll put that kind of stuff on there, but jessica stonephd.com.
44:32
I will say I am not the greatest at upkeeping all the list of the trainings and all that kind of stuff, but you’re
44:37
welcome to reach out to me and ask me, you know, what’s coming up and I’m I’m super happy to to interact with people
44:44
uh in that way. And so that’s probably the very best. I have a a Twitch stream that I do with Michael Eric. He’s a MFT
44:52
out of California. and we’re taking a little hiatus over the summer, but we have recorded episodes already on
44:59
YouTube. So, you can just look up digital play therapy and then on Twitch. And I’m I’m edging him. I’m talking into
45:06
can we turn this into a podcast because for some people Twitch is a foreign they don’t even know what I’m talking about.
45:12
And so to to get it easily on Spotify and whatnot. So that’s my goal by the end of the summer that we’ll have
45:18
because we’ve been doing that for almost five years. We’ve been doing that Twitch stream and it’s a conversation like
45:24
this. It’s essentially a podcast where we’re talking about all kinds of things to do with digital play therapy. And
45:31
I’ll lastly say that uh UNICEF has done two amazing studies and I strong well
45:39
I’m going to say they’re reports they’re not studies because it’s conglomeration. They did one in 22 and one in 24 and
45:45
it’s called the RICE study. It’s ri. So just Google that and UNICEF and
45:51
you’ll come up with both of them. Really amazing stuff that you can use for yourself to understand and also when
45:57
you’re talking with any collateral contact, parents, caregivers, anybody.
46:02
Some really powerful stuff in there. I strongly recommend it. suggests,
46:08
thank you once again for um a enlightening uh conversation for helping
46:16
uh play therapists wrap their mind around this. And one of the things I just I I love that
46:22
you say every time I speak with you, read something that you write, but you are such an advocate for
46:30
um join the child where it’s meaningful for the child. And that’s just a message
46:37
that I hear come out of you in so many different ways that that the the where
46:43
the meaning is is the entry point. Um, and just thank you for being a voice for
46:48
that and for kids and what’s important for for them. So, thank you. Yeah, appreciate the conversation. Yep. All
46:55
right, everyone, wherever you are in the world, hope this
47:00
podcast um finds you well. Uh, take care of yourself. You are the most important
47:06
toy in the playroom. Until next time, everyone.
