Cultural Curiosity in the Playroom: Lessons from Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Communities

Lisa Dion
Thank you once again for taking the time to listen to this episode from the Lessons from The Playroom podcast. I have with me a very special guest from the other side of the world from where I am. So listeners, you probably know, but in case you don’t know, I am right in Boulder, CO in the United States, and I have Dr. Carmen Cubillo from Australia. Very exciting though—I get to see her in person in about a week stateside at a conference coming up. But for right now, we are saying hello from opposite sides of the globe to have a very important conversation about culture.

And listeners, specifically, our culture as the therapist and the influence of our own culture in the therapeutic relationship. I want to introduce all of you to Carmen, in case you don’t know her. So, Dr. Carmen Cubillo is a clinical psychologist and an RPT. She is passionate about supporting children and families through trauma and healing-informed care, play therapy, and early intervention. She’s worked extensively with the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities, ensuring culturally safe and healing-centered approaches.

With experience in programs like Let’s Start Exploring Together, Parents Under Pressure, school-based play therapy interventions, and CPRT, she helps parents, children, and families build resilience and emotional well-being. She also trains supervisors and therapists, sharing expertise in childhood trauma and therapeutic parenting. Based in the Darwin Catholic region of Australia, she continues to advocate for accessible, high-quality mental health support for kids and families.

Carmen, thank you so much for joining me and having this really important conversation.

Carmen Cubillo
Very, very welcome. Thank you for having me.

Lisa Dion
Yes.

Carmen Cubillo
It’s kind of a therapy bucket list, isn’t it? Podcast. So exciting.

Lisa Dion
Well, I get to hug you next week—that’s even more exciting! So, Carmen, I reached out to you for many, many reasons. Obviously, the conversation about culture is a really important conversation, and there’s been a lot more awareness of how important the conversation is. But what I love about how you’re talking about it is the therapist’s own culture. And so, I’m really excited to jump into that with you today.

Let me just ask the general question—why is this topic so meaningful for you?

Carmen Cubillo
It’s meaningful because when you are part of a minority in a larger culture—especially like Australia, a melting pot of cultures—you experience many different masks. And you need those masks to survive, I guess. And becoming a therapist and doing that deep work that we need to do in order to be present with ourselves, to be present with our clients, it occurred to me that that’s where we are almost letting ourselves and our clients down. By not reflecting and using reflexive practice for our culture.

And what that looks like in real life is going to supervision and saying, “I’m stuck with this client. I’m not sure what to do. I don’t think anything’s happening.” And one of the reasons could be this reflection that we need to do on how our culture—our positioning within our culture—might be impacting the therapeutic relationship with our clients that are most likely going to be from a different culture than us.

Lisa Dion
How do you define—? I know that people talk about culture in different ways, but for this conversation, how do you want us to be thinking about the word culture?

Carmen Cubillo
Uh. The first acknowledgement is that it’s such a living being. You know, I don’t think anyone has ever really been able to capture the dynamics of culture—how shapeable, how flexible it is. And how it means something unique to every single person.

We could all be members of the same cultural group—same tribe, same clan, or same country—and have a unique relationship with our definition of culture. And I think I wrote to you about the cultural bubble. And sometimes it’s a blessing to think about things on the fly, but also…

So, we all walk around in our little cultural bubble. And sometimes I think, in therapeutic approaches, we’re taught that we are with the client, that we’re leaving everything at the door. But that’s just not how culture works. It’s within. It’s what we exude. It’s actually a crucial part of the therapeutic relationship.

How you engage with your culture and be aware of your client’s culture, and how they can walk alongside each other, is one of the things that makes the relationship work.

Lisa Dion
So for you, what are some of your cultural influences that you identify or that you find yourself working with as you are in the playroom?

Carmen Cubillo
Well, I actually didn’t grow up in my community. I grew up on the other side of Australia, and I came home—I used to think it was a few years ago, but now it’s 20 years ago! I came home because I really wanted to learn about my people, where I came from, and what that means to me spiritually.

And one of the most beautiful things that happened when I reconnected with relatives and extended family and experienced community living is that there are so many wonderful things about my culture. Aboriginal people are friendly and helpful and really cheeky and funny and really able to listen deeply.

And there’s even a word for it across the clans—one of the words that’s most recognized is dadirri, which is the active deep listening. And it’s about bringing those strengths of your culture into who you are as a play therapist and into your practice.

Those kinds of things have really helped me connect in the playroom and with parents and service providers, and that’s something that I will continue to lean into.

Lisa Dion
I love what you just said there. Because there are many different trainings that have you reflect on what you perceive your cultural influences to be, and even the different identities that you identify with.

But I love this piece that you just said—the strength. What’s the strength of the different cultures? Because we all may identify with multiple cultures, multiple ways of being. But what’s the unique strength that you gain from each one that informs you as a clinician?

As I’m saying this, I’m laughing because part of my heritage is Italian. I’m very expressive with my hands! I’m very expressive in that way. And so, as you were saying that, I just had a moment of sort of smiling around that part of me—of my ability to use my hands and to be sort of dynamic when I play.

Carmen Cubillo
Yeah, yeah. And some of the things—there are many, many wonderful things about the Italian culture in general. But also, your positioning within your culture.

It’s this really beautiful, friendly connection, you know? And if I was to practice dadirri with you, I’d be looking at your hands, I’d be looking at your expressive face, and I’d be looking at all things Italian, so to speak, to connect and understand your point of view.

Lisa Dion
Interesting. Let’s talk more about that. How do we become more curious about—? I have two thoughts that are coming to mind.

Sometimes, there are cultural clues that may be a bit more obvious to us with a client, right? And then there are other cultural identities that may be hidden, and we may not know about them.

So how do we become—? What are some of the places where we can become curious with our clients? The obvious, and then the not so obvious?

Carmen Cubillo
Yes. Yes. Yes. And if we can acknowledge that that is a continual process of curiosity, of, well, I learned this, and so let me put that aside for now and learn this other thing. If we can acknowledge that the learning never stops, then we can remove that fear of “I’m going to get it wrong.”

Because you will. You will get it wrong, and that’s OK. It’s how we approach it, how we correct ourselves, how we hold ourselves accountable, and how we continue to grow that really matters.

Lisa Dion
I love that. I love that.

Carmen Cubillo
Yeah.

Lisa Dion
That makes me think of—because you were talking about the cultural supervision that you’re doing—I imagine that part of what comes up in that is also therapists feeling the pressure to be perfect or to get it “right” when working across cultures.

Carmen Cubillo
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And perfectionism is one of the biggest barriers to connection.

Lisa Dion
Say that again.

Carmen Cubillo
Perfectionism is one of the biggest barriers to connection.

Lisa Dion
Yes.

Carmen Cubillo
Yeah. And I think, you know, the biggest gift we can give ourselves as therapists, particularly when working across cultures, is the ability to sit with our own discomfort and not run from it.

Because when we run from discomfort, we make mistakes. We disconnect. We avoid. But if we can sit in that space of “Oh, wow, I don’t know what to do here” or “I think I made a mistake,” and stay with it, we open the door for real connection and repair.

Lisa Dion
Yeah, yeah. That’s such an important point. And I’m also thinking, as you’re saying this, that part of what might come up in cultural supervision is this idea of shame, right?

Carmen Cubillo
Yes.

Lisa Dion
Because if I realize I made a mistake, if I realize I held a bias I wasn’t aware of, or I said something that was unintentionally harmful, there can be a lot of shame that comes up. And if I don’t know how to navigate that shame, I might shut down, I might get defensive, I might over-apologize in a way that actually makes it about me instead of my client.

Carmen Cubillo
Exactly.

Lisa Dion
And so, I imagine part of what you’re doing in supervision is helping therapists hold that shame in a way that allows them to move through it rather than getting stuck in it.

Carmen Cubillo
Yeah, yeah. And I think that’s one of the hardest pieces, because when we’re sitting in a space of shame, we are not able to be fully present with our clients. We’re in our own experience instead of being in the moment with them.

And so, a lot of the work is around helping therapists recognize when shame is coming up, normalizing it, and then moving through it with compassion. Because we’re all human. We’re all going to make mistakes. What matters is what we do next.

Lisa Dion
Yes. Yes. That’s so powerful.

Carmen Cubillo
And I think when we can really embrace that, it actually allows for deeper connections with our clients, because they see us as human too. And that models something really important for them—that mistakes aren’t the end of the world, that we can repair, that we can grow.

Lisa Dion
Yeah. And that just ties back to what you were saying earlier about the ongoing process of learning. If we can hold mistakes as opportunities for growth rather than as proof that we’re not good enough, then we stay open, we stay engaged, and we stay connected.

Carmen Cubillo
Exactly. And that’s where the magic happens.

Lisa Dion
Yeah. That’s where the magic happens. And, you know, as you’re saying that, I’m thinking about just how important it is for us as therapists to have spaces where we can process this stuff, because if we’re holding it all internally and we don’t have anyone to talk to about it, it’s going to show up in the playroom whether we want it to or not.

Carmen Cubillo
Yes.

Lisa Dion
And so, I love that you’re talking about cultural supervision as a space where therapists can explore their fears, their biases, their mistakes, and do that in a way that allows them to grow rather than just feel stuck in guilt or uncertainty.

Carmen Cubillo
Yes. And I think that’s so crucial because, again, if we don’t process it, it will leak into our work. It will show up in how we respond to our clients, in what we’re attuned to and what we’re not.

And I think another really important piece is that this work isn’t just about the individual therapist and their client—it’s about the broader systems we’re all part of. So, when we do our own work, when we unpack our fears and our biases, we’re actually helping to shift those larger systems too.

Lisa Dion
Oh, that’s such an important point. Because we don’t operate in isolation. We’re part of a larger system, and the way we show up in our work contributes to that system.

Carmen Cubillo
Yes. And I think that’s why it’s so important to recognize that this isn’t a one-time thing. Cultural learning, cultural humility—it’s an ongoing process. It’s not like, “Oh, I took a training, I’m good now.” No, it’s a lifelong journey.

Lisa Dion
Yes, yes. A lifelong journey. That’s such a good way to put it.

Carmen Cubillo
And I think when we can embrace that, it actually takes some of the pressure off. Like, we don’t have to be perfect. We just have to be committed to learning, to listening, to being open to feedback.

Lisa Dion
Yeah. That’s so freeing, right? Because then it’s not about getting it “right” all the time. It’s about being in relationship—with our clients, with ourselves, with our own learning process.

Carmen Cubillo
Exactly. And that’s where real connection happens.

And the wonderful thing is, is this all happens through our therapeutic relationship? You know, there’s two-way sharing. We often think that therapy is, you know, something that happens in the playroom, and you know, whether you’re non-directive or directive, you know, we are still a part of the relationship. But it’s the information coming back to us that’s this beautiful exchange, and that’s when we learn about their positioning within their culture.

And just knowing generally how your—wherever you’re practicing—how it’s made up. You know, for Darwin, we have a lot of Asian families here, and we have a really strong heritage of Greek families. So Greek families built this city, and they often bring relatives over. And there’s this, you know, cultural awakening when they go home, and things are different because they imagined that everything would be the same. And then they go home, and they—Wow, this is—you know, the Greek culture changed because, yeah, the Greek culture now lives in Darwin and has contact with all these other cultures.

And so, culture changes itself depending on where people are and the interaction with other cultures. So, just being aware of the, you know, the dynamic nature of culture. And I love “layers of curiosity.” You might see that on a slide next week.

Lisa Dion
Oh, that’s so—I so love it. Yes. But that—that is what I’m hearing. So, so with that, let’s go back into the layers of curiosity within ourselves as clinicians. So, you just introduced that. I mean, yes, the landscape in which we are offering therapy—it impacts us, and that’s an influence, so we need to address that.

Carmen Cubillo
Yeah.

Lisa Dion
What’s the—do you think of us not being culturally curious about who we are as a therapist? And like, you know what I mean? What happens—not about ourselves and about our surroundings—about that?

Carmen Cubillo
Well, this is—this is where it’s, you know, this is the tough part.

Lisa Dion
None.

Carmen Cubillo
You’re going to be culturally unsafe. You’re going to communicate in many different layers that you are not a safe person for this child to open up to. And sometimes it’s as subtle as behavioral cues.

So, if I was to walk into a room with an Aboriginal child from a remote community, and I sat on a chair and I started talking and I’m really intensely looking at them—those behaviors are unsafe for them. But if I ask them, you know, and gave them a really great explanation of the room and gave them choice and sat on the floor with them and, you know, proper child—let them, you know, show me how I can be with them in the room—that all sounds very much like child-centered principles.

But I’m tapping into our strengths as well. I believe this Aboriginal child knows their culture and knows our roles here. I’m an older woman. I am supposed to be in this part of the room, and they are a child, and they know that they are supposed to be directing the room.

And those things only come from experience. There is no course book, you know, nothing you can do to—that is just being with, over and over and over again, and having that reflection: “That did not feel good to me. What was that about? I need to go and get some supervision and then unpack that.”

And if we are not curious—there are some cultures that have hurt other cultures for a really long time. So, intergenerationally, if you don’t unpack what that means for you, whether you are part of the minority or part of the majority, you’re going to be culturally unsafe.

Particularly for majority cultures, because it’s the systemic stuff that’s still happening that is hurtful to our clients. And if we are unaware of that, the way we behave and the way that we relate and even our reflections are going to be hurtful.

And we, as play therapists, part of our culture is “do no harm.” And we would be heartbroken if we knew that we caused harm. But if we don’t do the hard work, if we don’t do the reflexive practice of breaking down—I will call it, I’ll call it racism in general, because everybody has a unique position there.

People have never experienced racism ever before in their lives—very, very lucky. But the way that they behave in a room with somebody that has experienced racism will be very sensitive. And if the therapist has not done their work unpacking that, and what that means for them, and how they can be culturally safe, then what happens in everyday life is that disengagement.

They won’t come back. Clam up. They won’t. They won’t engage with the therapist because they’re not a safe person.

Lisa Dion
It’s like the—I don’t even—I don’t know what to pay attention to me, that I inadvertently could walk right into a situation because of my own—

Carmen Cubillo
Mm.

Lisa Dion
Let’s call it what it is: ignorance.

Carmen Cubillo
Yeah.

Lisa Dion
Unintentional ignorance, but ignorance.

Carmen Cubillo
Mm. Yeah.

Lisa Dion
That then plays into my client’s perception that I may not be a safe person in the moment.

Carmen Cubillo
Which goes against our core principle, doesn’t it? You know, as play therapists, we work so hard on safety, and when we’re working intergenerationally, we kind of need to be aware that we need to be intergenerationally safe. Yeah, the client might not be impacted right now, but their lineage was.

Lisa Dion
Yeah, I’m hearing you. Plant another seed in here that I want to highlight ’cause I think it’s really important. And you’re also saying there’s also that, yes, go, go learn. And then there’s also other pieces where it’s experience, you know, you’re not going to learn in a book like, it’s just going to be experienced. And what I’m hearing is this balance of, you know, sort. We do our best and then listen for the future. Feedback and we watch for the feedback, and that’s the place of curiosity and learning. And I want you to say a little bit more about that ’cause I want to highlight that for listeners because I just know in our field there is just such…

Carmen Cubillo
Yeah.

Lisa Dion
Fear.

Carmen Cubillo
Hmm.

Lisa Dion
Right? There’s fear on this, around getting it wrong. And I’m saying, yeah, there is a risk here, but it sounds like the risk is more when we don’t acknowledge that there’s something strange just happened.

Carmen Cubillo
Yes.

Lisa Dion
Or it means more when we—when we avoid it.

Carmen Cubillo
Hmm. Versus…

Lisa Dion
That place of curiosity and then attuning to, I think a rupture just happened. Let me go…

Carmen Cubillo
Yeah.

Lisa Dion
Let me go and pack that. Will you say more about that? ‘Cause I want therapists to have permission.

Carmen Cubillo
Yes, exactly. We are working with relationships, and so rupture repair, rupture repair. I think when it comes to cultural things, we get so afraid of making a mistake. We are on the side of caution. But like we just talked about. My dad, there’s a big storm here. I thought. Had moved on when I dialed on with you anyway.

Lisa Dion
Oh.

Carmen Cubillo
Was I? Yes. Being afraid and when we are on the side of caution, we’re actually making the mistake that we try to avoid in the first place.

Lisa Dion
None.

Carmen Cubillo
And…

Lisa Dion
Therapist. Did you hear that?

Carmen Cubillo
And the thing that I want to share is that I make mistakes all the time. And it’s something that I took from SPT. You know when you acknowledge that in the moment, or even if you acknowledge it afterwards and you go in to repair mode, you are allowed to do that. That makes you a culturally safe therapist by making the necessary adjustments to improve the relationship, improve the connection. If you are like storing it away in the back of your mind and pushing through with the session, you know, to think about it later or do it… That, that moment, that beautiful moment for repair, has passed, you know, and then you’re working harder to kind of reengage your client. And that doesn’t work out for anyone. So the client may feel unheard and misunderstood and may not want to come back. And then the therapist ends up in supervision going, I don’t know what went wrong. The client disengaged or… I don’t feel good about that or, you know, we are allowed to address things in the moment. And to be more culturally safe and to make the necessary adjustments based on our client’s positioning within their culture.

Lisa Dion
Such an interesting thing, isn’t it? Where we don’t say something because we think, well, if we say something, then we’re going to make them uncomfortable.

Carmen Cubillo
Yeah. The very act of not saying something is making them uncomfortable.

Lisa Dion
And when you… There’s such a release, isn’t there? Yeah, yeah.

Carmen Cubillo
Because if we’re as if we’re not, as if we both just didn’t experience something, we’re just gonna pretend like… I just think that’s interesting.

Lisa Dion
Yeah.

Carmen Cubillo
We just don’t bring things up because… Afraid. Then we’ll bring it up.

Lisa Dion
Yeah, that’s already up. And if we push through, we’re breaking those rules. We’re not following our… We’re not listening to our… We’re not practicing where we’re doing what we think we should do. Well, what we should be doing is taking a step back, acknowledging that feeling in our bellies or what we’re seeing in our clients and saying, hey…

Carmen, do you have some, whether it’s questioning or different practices that you can suggest for therapists? Like, let’s say that something has happened with a client, and there is the—is there a cultural piece here? Is there a… How would you guide someone into that reflexive experience of, “Is it?” Yeah. Of how would you guide them into what was that about for me?

Carmen Cubillo
I think each moment’s gonna be different for every therapist. I’ll give an example. I had to do an interview for a family who were going through the court, they were going through the reunification. It was very, very tricky and so I wanted to meet the little person, and we sat together, and I was asking questions. And, of course, in my mind, needed to know a specific part about disconnection to culture, so I was asking about language and playing, and I’m both on the floor, and then I made the mistake. And the mistake was asking if they knew any words in their I-married dialect. The shutdown was immediate, and the child got up and said, “I want to go to my mum,” who was the non-Aboriginal foster care in the waiting room. We’d negotiated the door being slightly open because that’s how they felt safe. And that was it. I never got the opportunity to see the little person again, and I felt it in my guts, in my heart, and my head, and immediately I was like, why would you say that? Why would you ask that? And it’s because I have the other half of my brain going, “We’re going to court, and I need this piece of information.” And I’ve made a mistake, and I didn’t get to fix that one. Wasn’t a moment of repair there? But my learning will be with me for the rest of my life, and that’s to be gentler and that’s to engage in other ways of connection, disconnection to culture. You know. I asked. And you know, this is… I’ve been training in this for a long time. I’ve been practising this way for a really long time, and I still made a mistake. And the lesson from that has been so important to me. And of course, I have apologized, you know, in prayer to this little person. I did unintentionally be culturally unsafe by questioning when I didn’t take the time to learn about this little person’s connection or disconnection to their culture, which would have included language. And it would make sense they weren’t raised there. Of course, they don’t know many. They weren’t exposed enough to it, and I didn’t use that knowledge to help me engage through that session, and I will forever be sorry about that. And so that’s the only story. You cannot know until you’re in that moment, and…

Lisa Dion
What also highlights that piece you were saying earlier around? What are the other… like you said that this little child… the idea of having the words almost doesn’t make sense as a question because they weren’t long enough to get some of the words. But had you taken that data point as part of the content, part of the child’s story, and then…

Carmen Cubillo
Yeah.

Lisa Dion
Maybe, maybe that that question was sort of irrelevant or not, or like said a different way of approaching what needed to be addressed. Yes.

Carmen Cubillo
Lisa, it became about what I wanted to know in the session. It stopped becoming about the child and their experience of their connection to their culture. That’s the mistake that I made. I wanted to know that for the court report, and I needed… It’s like I needed the child to say it. For me to go, “That’s valid. That goes in the report.” So reflecting on the whole session, you know, if I could have my chance again, we would have just played.

Lisa Dion
Ah.

Carmen Cubillo
I wouldn’t have asked any of those things because like you said, I already know this.

Lisa Dion
I know that.

Carmen Cubillo
From the big thick file they gave me in preparation for it, but because I was so focused on a specific thing, I became culturally unsafe.

Lisa Dion
Thank you for the story and for sharing your vulnerability in that. And I know, I hear you. Calling out energetically in prayer, right? The apology to this little person.

Carmen Cubillo
Yeah.

Lisa Dion
So I want to join you in that and open my heart and send out… How do I say? Wrap my arms around both of you to say the number of people that have the opportunity to grow from this story, and therefore the number of children that get to be healed and heard and seen as a result of the interaction between the two of you. Thank you for… So we can also gather the wisdom of what happened between the two of you.

Carmen Cubillo
I never thought about it like that. Thank you.

Lisa Dion
I’m sending that to this little person too, that… The pain of the rupture in the moment has a healing ripple for many.

Carmen Cubillo
Oh, that’s gorgeous.

Lisa Dion
Not to dismiss, not to take away what that felt like for that little person at all. Not in any way, shape or form. And there’s a lesson learned from it.

Carmen Cubillo
Yeah. Yeah. And leaning into the strengths of our people, it’s one tough kid.

Lisa Dion
That’s one tough kid. Yeah, that’s one kid. Yeah, exactly. Oh, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. So Carmen, what… As we think about this topic, which is such a… well, there’s just so many layers to this topic. What else would you love for listeners to hear or to understand as we start to round out the conversation?

Carmen Cubillo
I would really like listeners to start connecting to country. So what I mean by that is the way that Aboriginal people and a lot of First Nations share this similar sentiment is that we have a relationship with the very ground that we live and work on. It may not be where you were born. That’s a different special relationship you have with your birthplace, but we have our spiritual home, our work home, the home where our family is. And to really start to know what happened to that country where you’re based, what is the history of this place? Is the history of Denver. How did it become to be? Who were the people who cared for Denver before it became Denver? What were the customs and traditions that people did to take care of the land there, and what kind of peeks through? February today, you know is seasonal celebrations, is a change of seasons. Right now we are in the middle of a storm in Darwin. It’s our wet season. This is where a lot of regeneration happens for our plants and our fish and our birds and we get a lot of allergies because of this change, you know? So what things keep country alive where you are and that grounds you. It grounds you. It grounds you physically and it grounds you to the people that live there and by knowing the social history, the political history, what’s happening now, like in the news, what’s happening in your city allows you to be deeply aware of the things that might impact the client that comes to see you and allows you to be curious on all of those levels. And it does deal with the fear, the more awareness you have. The less fear you have about it. If, if that makes sense. So living in Darwin has been a journey. Visiting Cocoa Beach, I came home and I started researching the First Nations people of Cocoa Beach and I know they would have been saltwater people and their children would have grown up learning how to hunt and gather and look for the tides and look for the seasons and look for the stars and just really soak in. You know that wonderful energetic connection with country because that helps you be. A more fulfilled person and a more centered therapist.

Lisa Dion
That’s a beautiful sort of… for all of us? Absolutely. Well, Carmen. As we wrap up, I actually want to practice for a moment the very thing that we’re talking about. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna come from a place of curiosity with you. So just just a couple minutes ago when I was sharing what I was sharing around. The sort of the gift of the offering. Of your sharing of vulnerability in the story and opening my heart also to this little person. About a minute after I finished saying it, I had this sort of thing that bubbled up in me and went was that sensitive? So I’m just, I’m just gonna practice what we’re talking about, and I’m gonna check it out with you. So Carmen. That did that land as sensitive, or did that land as dismissive of your experience or dismissive of your little person’s experience?

Carmen Cubillo
Alright. No, my I felt sane. I felt understood in a way that you can’t put words on it. I was getting emotional. I was thinking because when we engage in our work and we try not to make mistakes and we we make mistakes, we’re human. We go through that. I guess self-punishment phase, you know, and all we can focus on is what went wrong. And when you showed the alternative or one of the many you know alternatives. To view that as something that I could share. For others to learn and grow from. It’s almost like you had a little peek into my struggle and a little peek into my healing process, and I have told that story many times in supervision. But to put it into this larger context. Of oh, that ripple effect. That’s the healing. That’s the closure. That’s the repair. It may not have happened in that moment, but I’m repairing and that is something that I can do for the rest of my time is to encourage that repair by sharing that story.

Lisa Dion
Thank you. I, I, I felt something and I thought well let me just check this out. ‘Cause, what we’re talking about, right? Checking, checking out those those things that happened in US relationally. So I thought I’d just check it out.

Carmen Cubillo
And now you know. And you were coming from a place of, Oh my goodness, did I make a mistake by sharing that by going in that direction? Not for me, you know, to engage with. And now you can be relaxed about that. You don’t have to think about that and go, oh, maybe I’ll, you know, e-mail or check in later because. We’ve unpacked it now, and if it was the other alternative and I had felt like that, then we unpack it and that’s another layer of healing, another layer of connection because it’s like…

Lisa Dion
Yes, I can.

Carmen Cubillo
You saw, you heard. You understood. You checked in.

Lisa Dion
Yeah, it’s.

Carmen Cubillo
And isn’t that what we’re here for?

Lisa Dion
Exactly. As I play out both scenarios, the one that just transpired and even the scenario if you’re like, yeah, Lisa, you know, I felt a little dismissive or something like that. On that direction and then we get to repair through it. Either way, I’m left with. Carmen, I feel closer to you.

Carmen Cubillo
And I’ve learned, you know, and I’ve learned I got to peek into you as well. And how much care you’re putting into this interaction and hoping that you can keep me safe within this relationship. Exactly, that’s that’s what we’re here for.

Lisa Dion
What we’re here for, that’s what this whole conversation is about.

Carmen Cubillo
Yeah.

Lisa Dion
Carmen, thank you so much. I look forward to giving you that hug in person next week.

Carmen Cubillo
I will travel two days to be with everybody. But yes, thank you.

Lisa Dion
You’re welcome.

Listeners. My hope is that you. Have some time to think about this conversation and to think about your clients, to think about where you live, to think about history, where you live, the influences where you live your own. Heritage your own influences into who you are. And I will go with Carl will say layers of curiosity. I’ve raised layers of curiosity, everyone.

Carmen Cubillo
Lean on in. Of lean on in.

Lisa Dion
As always, thank you for whatever you are up to in this world. I know it. Don’t doubt yourself, however. You are approaching healing and working with children and families. Thank you. Thank you. You are the most to me in the playroom.

Carmen Cubillo
Good night.

Lisa Dion
Until next time, everyone.