Navigating ADHD Through Play Therapy: Dual Perspectives for Therapists and Caregivers

Lisa Dion

Hi, listeners. Thank you for tuning in and joining me for this latest episode of the Lessons from the Playroom podcast. I hope you have something to take notes with for this topic. At minimum, I hope you listen to this episode more than once.

We are going to be diving into the world of ADD and ADHD, but we’re going to be talking about it in two ways—not only the experience of the children that we are working with, but also, what about when it’s the clinician or the therapist? As I’m saying this, it might be you, listener, who also has ADD or identifies in some way as neurodivergent. So we’ll expand that out, and I have with me a very special guest.

Let me go ahead and introduce everyone to Tony Vallance, all the way from Australia. Hi! Thank you so much.

Tony Vallance

G’day, mate! Hello, Lisa.

Lisa Dion

Hi there. Let me share with everyone just a little bit about you, and then let’s jump into this really important conversation. So, you specialize in supporting neurodivergent children and teenagers, particularly those with autism and ADHD. Your own ADHD diagnosis, which we’re going to get into and talk about, fuels your authentic, highly creative approach. We’re going to talk about what that looks like and explore ADD and ADHD as a gift. I’m going to go ahead and plant that seed in there—if we can scratch the surface of that a little bit.

You also empower fathers with emotional resilience and healthier parenting strategies, drawing from both your expertise as a dad and lived experience as a dad to neurodivergent kids. I’m just super grateful that you’re here to help us understand this a little bit more because we both know it’s super misunderstood. So, thank you.

Tony Vallance

Oh, thank you! Thanks for having me, Lisa. Really appreciate it. Your gratitude is mirrored from across the world.

Lisa Dion

Oh, and I should probably even just mention—you’re in Melbourne, and Building Better Brains—that’s the name of your practice, right?

Tony Vallance

Yeah, Building Better Brains, yes.

Lisa Dion

Building Better Brains—yeah, exactly! Your practice and your work are connected to Building Better Brains clinic.

Tony Vallance

Yes.

Lisa Dion

It’s three B’s in a row!

Tony Vallance

That’s right—we’re all about alliteration down here in Melbourne! buildingbetterbrains.com.au

Lisa Dion

Yeah.

Tony Vallance

For sure! My wife and I set up the clinic. She became a play therapist before me, and it is with no regret that I say she dragged me into it! I retrained from being a high school teacher for 15 years—during the lockdowns, working as a counselor—to retrain as a play therapist.

So, I’ve been doing that for three years now. It started as a little clinic with just her and me, and now we have 15 staff.

Lisa Dion

This is your specialization, so thank you so much! Can we just start with—I’ve heard many people talk about ADD and ADHD in different ways, and I’m so curious how you talk about it, how you define it, how you describe it. Let’s start there.

Tony Vallance

Yeah, totally. What comes to mind—and this may sound pretty bleak—it’s a world-ender.

There are so many kids I’ve seen, teaching and in consulting and working to support educators, who have ADHD. They’re often the outcasts, the noisy ones, sitting outside coordinators’ offices, caught in that internalized spiral of, I’m a failure. I can’t do this. I can’t focus.

So in terms of how education acknowledges and supports these kids, there’s a long way to go. But there are so many beautiful teachers out there who are doing their absolute best despite these challenges.

ADHD comes in a lot of different forms. Even though, some years back, the terminology shifted from ADD to ADHD, it’s still a bit odd because many people—including my own son—have the inattentive variant rather than the hyperactive form.

I’m the classic poster child. My school reports growing up in New Zealand would say things like, Tony needs to learn to focus better in class and stop distracting the other children. But inattentive ADHD, which is more common in females and some males, is harder to spot. It often manifests as an inability to hold focus for any period of time.

It’s also comorbid in about 95% of cases with rejection sensitivity or rejection-sensitive dysphoria (RSD)—which means your internal working model of self is permanently stuck on the negative. I’m terrible. I can’t do anything right. We tend to deflect compliments or achievements, and at the end of the day, when we’re trying to sleep, our brains hyperfocus on the negatives, reinforcing those really tough self-perceptions.

So, working in a strengths-based way is key. My late diagnosis—only three years ago—helped me understand this better. I had people say, Oh, Tony, I thought you always knew! But nope—everyone knew except me!

It can be hard because we want to celebrate the creative and kinetic approaches ADHD brings. Even in inattentive ADHD, we help kids build confidence, find focus, and grow from their strengths.

When people call ADHD a superpower, I understand where that comes from. But for someone with rejection sensitivity, when you’re struggling, hearing that can feel dismissive—like, If this is a superpower, why can’t I do anything right?

If it were something more visible—like walking down the street with a prosthetic leg—people wouldn’t say, Wow, you must be great at hopscotch! But with ADHD, society doesn’t always recognize the struggles, just like they might not recognize the strengths.

Lisa Dion

I have a question because this is really fascinating. I’ll just name that, to my knowledge, I don’t have ADD or ADHD. I was at a conference last week for entrepreneurs, and they said 80% of entrepreneurs are likely diagnosed with ADD or ADHD—but they called it a superpower, a superpower of creativity.

As someone who does not have ADD or ADHD, I’m really loving what you’re saying about using that language, especially for someone who might feel like, “It doesn’t feel like a superpower to me.” In fact, that kind of framing might just create more inner brain noise.

What I found interesting is this: Is it useful for someone who does not identify with ADD or ADHD to hold the lens that the creative side of someone with ADD or ADHD is something to be celebrated? And from that perspective, a superpower?

The reason I ask is that I think individuals who do not have ADD or ADHD spend so much time judging and criticizing children or individuals because they don’t fit into society’s rules and expectations. Or am I missing the whole point here and should remove that language from the vocabulary?

Tony Vallance

No, not at all. I think I understand what you’re saying—that it’s a way to verbalize and confirm strengths, a validation of strengths.

I completely understand what you’re saying in the context of entrepreneurs. People with ADHD are actually 300% more likely to start a business. But I’ve had to be very careful, too. Recently, at conferences, I’ve felt so proud of the work my wife and I have done over the years, both in education and in our business. We’ve received significant state and national awards for that work. And at these events, I see phenomenal people who are courageous, creative, and doing incredible things.

But we’re the survivors. And there’s always that underlying trauma. Even anecdotally, in every single intake session I do with autism and ADHD, I look at those early traumas and attachment ruptures.

For those of us who managed to find a way to work within the system—whether it was because of the support we had growing up, education, or even sheer intellectual power—there are so many more who couldn’t make it. Who are really suffering.

So it’s a tough one. The people you see at those conferences are the ones fortunate enough to have made it through.

Does that make sense?

Lisa Dion

I love this so much. And I love that you and I are coming at this from different perspectives—yours from lived experience, mine from not having that experience. What you’re supporting me in, and I hope other listeners too, is thinking a little more deeply.

It’s like you’re helping my brain feel through the nuances of a lived experience that’s different from mine. If that makes sense?

Tony Vallance

Oh, yay! That’s great.

Lisa Dion

Right? Which is kind of the whole point of this podcast.

So yes, I was at a conference where 80% of people were identifying as having ADD or ADHD, and they were calling it their superpower. But you’re over here saying, “Yeah, but even as a collective, they don’t represent everyone with ADD or ADHD.” That was a certain sector.

It’s such a beautiful reminder for me—Lisa, stay curious. Stay curious about everyone’s unique experience with ADD and ADHD.

Listeners, are you hearing that? I’m really appreciating this conversation, so thank you.

Tony Vallance

Thank you, Lisa. And look, it’s a learning journey for me too. Post-diagnosis, after many years of curiosity—first as a teacher, then working as a therapist with kids and teenagers—I kept recognizing behaviors in myself. I’d have these moments of, “Oh, that’s what I do! I need to mention this to my supervisor.” And then post-diagnosis, I really started unpacking it.

It’s a journey, right? I’m not claiming to be a perfect expert, just sharing from my lived experience.

When we talk about ADHD as a superpower—yes, I do that a lot with my clients. But I also have to be careful. Because if I’m working from a bottom-up perspective, I’m looking at the real neuroception of safety, the real hindbrain experience.

Sometimes, it’s more like: “Dude, let’s be scared together. Let’s be frustrated. I will be frustrated with you. Let’s be angry together.” And slowly, we work our way through that.

And then, as we start shifting into the limbic system and eventually into the prefrontal cortex—well, with ADHD, we all know that’s an interesting journey. It’s like, “Hey, prefrontal cortex, where are you? Hello? Hello?” And sometimes, it just doesn’t respond.

Lisa Dion

I just caught another nuance in what you shared—the risk in even putting a positive spin on ADHD.

Because if a client isn’t coming into my office feeling like, “This is my superpower,” then I’m not attuned to where they’re at. They’re coming in feeling like, “This is hard. I don’t fit. This is painful.”

And so, even though I might hold the bigger picture that both things can be true—the pain and the strengths—we’re just not there yet.

We need to meet them in the pain and work through the pain first.

Tony Vallance

Yeah, totally.

One of my clients right now has been through everything you can imagine—complex trauma to the power of 10. And he’s doing phenomenal work. Physically, he’s kinetic, like a beautiful pinball. In the past, my mirror neurons would have pulled me into that energy, and we’d be pinging off each other, especially when I was a teacher.

But over the years, I’ve learned to resource myself, to love and hug my own inner child, to stay regulated. So now, I go where he’s going, but I channel it differently.

For example, I’ve got a drum kit in my room, and I get him on it. But the shame response hits him when he can’t do a simple beat. His head goes back, and boom—straight into avoidance.

It’s so uncomfortable and frustrating for him, and I just stay with that. I verbalize it: “Oh man, I’m with you. That’s hard.”

I don’t talk the whole time in sessions, I promise! But constantly validating that experience is key.

Lisa Dion

Yeah, we call it the setup, right? We’re invited into their world, and if we’re tuned in, we will feel the frustration alongside them. We will feel the sense of not good enough right along with them. And that’s what we’re co-regulating through.

Tony Vallance

Exactly. Yeah, correct. Yep, 100%. So verbalizing that frustration—yeah, we’re frustrated together. It’s so annoying. But you’ve got this. We’ll do it one more time. Just little things like that. And before you know it, you’ve spent 20, 30 minutes in a session working on this one thing, just building those beautiful little neuron connections.

I have a few neuron plushies, and I show them—”Look, every time you do this, they’re connecting!” It’s amazing to see them persevere despite that massive shame and avoidance response. I can see how hard it is for him in school because everything confirms his internal working model of self—”I can’t do this. My teachers don’t like me. My friends don’t trust me. I’m not safe. I can’t learn.”

I think having felt that myself as a neurodivergent person—and still feeling it—has helped. My RSD, similar to my amygdala, used to feel like a great whopping German shepherd with very little control. But now, it’s more like a cute little miniature Groodle—something I can hold, something smaller and safer.

That really helps when I work with these kids. I work predominantly with males who have challenges. I still have some female clients, but mostly males.

Lisa Dion

Let’s go into that a little bit because I think that’s really helpful for clinicians to hear. Here you are, working with a male.

Lisa Dion

You’re male.

Tony Vallance

Yep.

Lisa Dion

So you’re looking in a mirror.

Tony Vallance

Totally.

Lisa Dion

And what I’m hearing you say is that you’ve learned to hold a part of yourself.

Tony Vallance

Yeah.

Lisa Dion

In all the activation around not feeling good enough and all of that.

How did you do that? What’s been that process? What do you do? And I ask because, whether it’s ADD or ADHD, we as clinicians are in sessions with our mirrors.

Tony Vallance

Oh yeah, right.

Lisa Dion

We identify with the mirrors in front of us. So how do we work with those parts?

Tony Vallance

To get to that point, I often talk about accepting your scars and stars—really holding yourself through that. Obviously, that’s been a big journey, with therapists over the years, putting in the hard work, really staring into the scary stuff, opening Pandora’s box, tipping it all out on the floor, and thinking, “Gosh, that looks like a terribly deep swamp.”

Then, slowly stepping in—maybe titrating, swinging in and out, dipping a toe in—only to realize, “Oh, wait. I thought this was way deeper than it is.” Consciously taking time to wade through, even swim in the swamp of sadness for a bit, letting it pass through, and then coming out of it thinking, “That was yuck. Well, I’ll see you next time, Swamp.”

Now, that enables me to really see and experience it in sessions—going where the kids need to go. It’s allowed me to do more bottom-up work with these clients, especially since everything is so surface-level in the systems they’re in.

Being able to work through anger and rage—training with lightsabers, using punch pads—doing lots of work like that. And before you know it, there’s more eye contact, more emotional affect, voices drop in register. You hear all these changes as they sink into a more parasympathetic mode.

And then suddenly, “Oh, yeah, it’s like when this happened,” and they start reflecting and sharing. I’m so lucky and grateful to be doing this work. It’s amazing, humbling, and very challenging at times—especially when you get the big trauma splash.

Lisa Dion

Two questions just popped into my mind from what you just shared. The first—what message do you have for therapists who identify as neurodivergent?

Tony Vallance

So many of you have such high anxiety and second-guess every interaction. You fixate on something, then suddenly realize, “Oh no, I haven’t done my session notes. I have my next client. I have that thing I forgot!” It can be so, so challenging.

To all you beautiful people out there—give yourself a bit of a hug. Give yourself a butterfly hug. You’re doing amazing work. Yes, compliance is important, and yes, all these structured pieces are a part of what we do.

But the most important thing is that you are there, present, in relationship with your client—going where they need to go in the playroom. That’s it. And if you’re doing that—shut up and take my respect. And you should respect yourself, too. Be kind to yourself.

Lisa Dion

Love it. And for the listeners who do not identify as neurodivergent—what do you want them to really understand about the neurodivergent experience?

Tony Vallance

That’s such a good question, Lisa. Gosh, I would say the same sort of thing—always be kind to yourself regardless. Hello, human experience! But for those who may not have those particular challenges, be curious. Be more like Lisa—ask questions, be open to changing your mind, be curious.

You know, in our world of electric telephones and algorithmically split binary viewpoints, everything feels so divided—this political party or that political party, this identity or that. Just be kind and curious. Don’t be afraid to ask questions.

Because when someone can’t even ask, “Is it okay to talk about ADHD? I noticed you mentioned being diagnosed—do you find that frustrating? What’s your experience?”—it can leave that person feeling very alone. Regardless of being neurodivergent or not, asking questions is just another way to connect, another form of attachment. So, be curious. That’s all.

Lisa Dion

And check out your perceptions—like I did at the beginning. I came in hearing one thing, and you helped me understand from a different angle, a different perspective. That was beautiful.

Can we go into the playroom now?

Tony Vallance

Yeah.

Lisa Dion

You’ve already given some great examples through your stories about how you work. But from a therapeutic perspective, what do you think is most useful? Most helpful?

Tony Vallance

In terms of an approach?

Lisa Dion

Yeah, like if you were going to teach a class on using play therapy with ADHD, and you had a whole group of practitioners from different backgrounds and identifications, what would you say? If you could boil it down to three things, or five things, or even just one thing—what’s your perspective?

I’ll tell you where this question is coming from. There’s literature that takes a very cognitive approach, some that lean heavily behavioral, others that are more trauma-centered, and some that are purely non-directive. Maybe you use a hybrid approach—whatever the client needs. Do you work mainly with individuals or with families? I’d love to hear how you think about your work.

Tony Vallance

Okay, beautiful. Listen up, class! Please put your mobile devices away and switch them to silent.

Lisa Dion

Everyone, have a piece of paper and a pen ready!

Tony Vallance

Here’s something my amazing wife and CEO often shares when supervising staff at our clinic. She got it from her own supervisor—I apologize, their name escapes me—but it’s beautiful:

Take all your qualifications, all your experience, everything that has led up to that moment, and as soon as you walk into the playroom, leave it all at the door. Just be present with your client.

How does that work out for me? I guess you could say I use a hybrid model. With younger kids, I lean into a client-centered, unstructured approach. But as the relationship builds, I introduce elements tailored to their challenges.

And I’m very frank with my clients. Once we’ve worked together for a while—regardless of their age—I tell them, “I want you to be uncomfortable.” There’s no growth without discomfort.

Lisa Dion

You’ve said that so much! Will you say it one more time? I love that you just said that.

Tony Vallance

There’s no growth without discomfort.

Lisa Dion

Yes! I think in our field, we’ve confused safety with comfort.

Tony Vallance

Right.

Lisa Dion

Everything has to be “safe, safe, safe.” But many play therapists think that means there can’t be challenge in the room—that everything has to feel cozy. But it’s actually both, right?

Tony Vallance

Exactly.

Lisa Dion

We need safety, yes, but we also need an element of discomfort.

Tony Vallance

Yeah, totally. Quick segue—

Lisa Dion

We’re not stretching them if we don’t.

Tony Vallance

Come back to the playroom, I promise, Lisa. But—segue—the dads’ chat groups that I’m running down here in Melbourne, I’m so proud of these guys. Each week, it’s like 40 dads coming out on a Wednesday night. I’ve got them going with Play-Doh, we’re doing bubbles, throwing paper airplanes—lots and lots of therapy activities. Lots of beautiful attachment things and lots of real talk.

And sneakily, much like what we do for our children—”Hey, children, it’s time to have some sausage rolls”—it’s just beautiful mince with broccoli and carrots all ground up. So, there’s brain and behavior education going on as well.

Working in that hands-on, creative way, I’m always saying to them, “We’ve got to get uncomfortable.” This is going to be awkward, guys, because you hardly know me, and there are going to be some weird moments. But that’s where we need to be to learn.

If we take that back to working in the playroom with the client, it could be a breath-hold competition—because that’s really uncomfortable. Then reflecting on it: “I really felt like—” and then I say, “Look, I can see how uncomfortable that is. Count to ten really slowly, and let’s see if we can beat your record from before.” Giving them simple, measurable markers of success—particularly for kids with ADHD, who experience the confirmation bias of failure everywhere.

So, I want them to be uncomfortable. In my room, it’s an amalgamation of my 20 years working with kids and teenagers. There’s a Lego area, play toys, a sand tray, and VR—it’s out of sight but usable if it’s part of the plan with the child. Everything in VR is very curated.

For a kid with no sense of safety, it could be a place where they have complete control over night and day. For a child with perfectionism and anxiety, they might not even engage with it because they fear messing it up. So, I use something like The Climb 2, where they’re scaling a rock face. I ask, “Which way do you want to go?” As it gets more complex and challenging, the next week, I say, “You ready for the next level? Let’s get the wrist weights on.” These kids are sweating at the end of it, but that physical discomfort links directly to their mental resilience and self-belief. I’m big on that.

Personally, I worry about enabling my clients. In what world does any person get to the top of Maslow’s hierarchy or Bloom’s taxonomy without experiencing challenge? Who hasn’t gone through safety, connection, and relationship to a point where they are the master of their ship, steering the storm? That’s why they need to be uncomfortable.

Lisa Dion

OK, I’ve got a question that just popped into my head. When you’re choosing something or supporting them in an activity to build mastery and resilience through challenge—

Actually, before I ask, I want to give you context.

It has been my experience—please correct me if I’m misunderstanding—that children with ADHD tend to have an area of life that is really, really interesting to them. Like, hyper-focused. And when they are engaged in that area, they have the highest probability of being in the prefrontal cortex. There’s this beautiful connection in their brain happening in that moment.

So first, is that an accurate understanding? And second, do you create things in the playroom that aren’t connected to that area, so other parts of them can move through challenge?

Tony Vallance

Yeah, I think so. And correct me if I’m going off on the wrong tangent here, Lisa.

Initially, in the first few sessions, 100%—rapport, connection, attachment, and attunement. Bang, bang. That’s what we want. And I would argue that it becomes almost a whole-brain thing because I notice their breathing slows down.

When we run pro-social groups at the clinic—like Building Blocks, our LEGO group—the kids try so hard to do connection, theory of mind activities, and pass a LEGO plate to the next person. That can be so triggering for them. But when they’re engaged, they slow down, you can hear them breathing, and they are deeply focused. Analytics are activated in the prefrontal cortex.

So, I would start with their high interest, and then find ways to flow toward something similar— scaffolding them into these other parts where we can challenge them.

Lisa Dion

Not quite in line with their high interest, but slightly to the side of it?

Tony Vallance

Yes.

Lisa Dion

So we’re starting to expand the interest out a little bit. Am I thinking about this right?

Tony Vallance

Totally. With autistic kids in the playroom, for example, they might say, “Because in Yu-Gi-Oh, it’s really important to—” And I’ve been taught to play Yu-Gi-Oh. Let me tell you, I’ve also forgotten—thanks, ADHD!

That focus can be a 45-minute verbalization about Yu-Gi-Oh. And then you think, “Oh gosh, this isn’t therapeutic.” Here’s my imposter syndrome: “Tony, how can you charge for this? This is not therapeutic.” Close the door on that thought.

Instead, I find ways to redirect. Or, in some cases, I’m explicit: “I really want to hear about Yu-Gi-Oh, so how about you choose the next two things you want to tell me before we stop and do that thing you loved last week?”

So, validating their interest 100%, but also, like you said—hyper-focus-adjacent activities.

Lisa Dion

Exactly. Start moving out.

Tony Vallance

Yes.

Lisa Dion

I think that is still key for clinicians to get because I think sometimes clinicians, when they’re trying to make a decision about activities, sometimes jump into an area or choose an activity that maybe is too far away from what’s for the… or like there’s too much of a…

And if we’re talking about building a skill level, it’s sort of like start with where they are and then let that slowly grow.

Tony Vallance

Yep.

Lisa Dion

I tend to think of it— and again, tell me if I’m thinking about this correctly— as: we start with where they’re comfortable. Then, we establish rapport and that message of, “You totally get to be you in here. You are so loved and appreciated for who you are, your interests, and all of that.”

Then we slowly start to bring in a little bit of challenge. But we have to regulate through that until it gets into the window of tolerance. I’m not moving forward until that one has registered in the window of tolerance.

Once that’s in the window of tolerance— then we stretch it just a little bit more. Now we’re back to uncomfortable. This is really hard. Now we’re back to “can’t do it.” But then, we co-regulate through that until it’s in their window of tolerance. And then— we stretch it just a little bit more. Am I on the right track?

Tony Vallance

Totally. That’s exactly it, yeah. So, if you go back through the three levels of how we operate at any given moment as a play therapist— and really as any good therapist— everything is left outside. You’re deeply present with that child, teenager, or even an adult if you’re doing certain work. But then, there’s that meta-level above, which is like: “Okay, where to from here? Pivot, drop. Pivot, drop. Don’t need this. This way?” And then there’s the total level at the top, which is: “How does this pertain to threat-based play? What could be going on at a cognitive level for my client?” And that part of you is also going to write the notes at the end. But when it comes to being in relationship, we leverage our connection with our clients to say, “It’s okay. Come with me. We can go backwards and forwards into challenge,” just like you so beautifully described, Lisa.

And gradually— gradually— gradually— or, if we think about it through the model, right? Gradually— gradually— gradually grow that window of tolerance, which is commensurate with their self-belief, their RSD, their behaviors, their amygdala regulation.

As we start to grow their belief in their wise owl at the front— yes, super important. And I think maybe, as an ADHDer working in this space, the part of me that would say, “How does this pertain to this particular model or therapeutic approach?”— that part is literally not even outside the door. I don’t know where it is!

I’d have to go through my Google Drive and find that file of “maybe checking myself or self-doubt,” because that’s the real right-prefrontal-cortex neurons saying, “I’m ready to do work,” but also, “I don’t know… there’s some work to be done here.”

So, for me, it’s easier to just go with it. And maybe that’s come from being a teacher for so many years— just go with it, but be just as prepared to drop it as soon as you feel somatically from the client that it’s not working.  I tested something out the other week with a client who had experienced major trauma around their neck— a real, serious life-and-death trauma when they were a baby

Lisa Dion

Oh.

Tony Vallance

It had come up in early sessions. And I thought, “Wow, this is amazing that this stuff is surfacing.” I reflected what they were communicating—not the event itself, but the things they were mentioning. Anyway, we were doing some drum warmups with a little tongue drum— kind of like a Simon Says game. They’re in control, which is great for power and control dynamics.

They go ding ding, and I go, “Oh, I’ll see if I can remember those ding ding,” trying to hit the right notes with the mallet. Then, they add a new one each time. It’s a great way for me to gauge their working memory on that day. So, we’re doing that, and I thought, “Oh, I’ll do the djembe at the same time.” They liked that.

Then I said, “You know what I like to do with the drum?” I touched my neck, found my carotid artery, and said, “I like to make it the sound of my heartbeat. Then I know if I’m going fast or slow, if I’m calm or stressed, happy or sad, or a mix of those things.” But they did not want to touch their neck at all. So— no worries! I pivoted. We went to something else. It’s just about trying things. If it doesn’t work, you go a different way.

Long-winded, but I hope that made sense!

Lisa Dion

Because you’re basically titrating them toward the experience— but attuned enough to know when to back off and when to lean in.

Tony Vallance

Yeah.

Lisa Dion

Which, from my perspective, requires us to be really attuned to ourselves, too— and to follow our own intuition in the process. I often tell students: the thing that will mess us up the most in the playroom is thinking about what we think we should be doing in the playroom.

Tony Vallance

Yeah, right.

Lisa Dion

Our belief about what we should be doing— how it’s supposed to be, what we’re supposed to do—Because, Tony— you know, we read that book, right?

Tony Vallance

Been out.

Lisa Dion

That book.

Tony Vallance

Your prefrontal cortex into your limbic system.

Lisa Dion

Right, exactly. Or because that one teacher said that when the child plays with this, this is how you’re supposed to do it. Or that supervisor said this is when you’re supposed to set the boundary.

And what I just find so beautiful about this—this message I keep hearing you say—is that it’s an unfolding. Get in there, be present with the child. Titrate, titrate, and be attuned—back off when needed. We’re working on helping these children love themselves, strengthen their capacity, and develop a different internal working dialogue about the possibility that lies within them.

Tony Vallance

Yeah, totally. And I love that, Lisa—so beautiful.

You know, play is presence in motion, right? When you start thinking, “Oh, it’s this modality, so I should be doing this,” or “I should be titrating into exposure work for this OCD case,” or “I should be using more CBT approaches,”—just breathe out.

Lisa Dion

Exactly.

Tony Vallance

Just be with them. I had a session the other day with one of my beautiful boys. He has so many complex challenges but is incredibly intelligent and articulate. Yet, he has a lot of struggles, and he just isn’t sleeping. So I thought, “Dude, this is all Maslow’s hierarchy—we’re at the bottom. Let’s just be here.”

We sat there in silence for 15–20 minutes, just sitting in that exhaustion, really feeling what he was feeling. Then, he got up, saw the lightsabers in the corner, walked past the 3D printers and all the nerdy stuff in the room, picked one up, and said, “One of the best things I’ve ever done was joining a fencing club in primary school. I should do it again.” I said, “Show me.”

We cranked up the lightsabers, turned off the lights, and the rest of the session transformed. Suddenly, he was the teacher, and I was the student. Everything about him was alive—happy, strong, confident. And he legitimately scared me! I was reflecting, “This is really scary.” He didn’t hurt me, but every time, he tagged me with his strength.

I don’t think that moment would have happened if I had tried to force an approach—if I had thought, “I need to use this method to get this teenager to engage.” I just had to be with him, be present, and let it unfold.

Lisa Dion

Exactly. Forcing a conversation—”We need to talk about this,” “We’re supposed to be working on this goal,” “Your parents said we need to discuss what happened at school this past week”—

Tony Vallance

Yes.

Lisa Dion

Or whatever it is.

Tony Vallance

Totally right.

Lisa Dion

This is so good. Tony, for our listeners who want to find you and hear more, where can we direct them?

Tony Vallance

If anyone wants to see the work we’re doing, check out buildingbetterbrains.com.au. You can also find us on Instagram or Facebook—just type in Building Better Brains.

I’ve also recently started my own Instagram, and I’d love for people to check it out, especially neurodivergent parents and dads. I absolutely love running these dads’ groups, and I want to expand them. I want to train dads because there are so many out there feeling lonely, disempowered, and exhausted.

This is a societal issue that goes beyond gender, but I’m stoked to be working with these guys. They are amazing—brave, vulnerable. Being able to talk about parenting challenges—You know, the advantage of having less of a “handbrake” when working with clients is also a double-edged sword when a strong emotion comes up—bang, it happens, and sometimes it does damage. That has affected my marriage, previous relationships, my children. It has led me to do a lot of reflecting and work—and I’m still a work in progress.

So if you want to check out Neuro Dad Life, you can find me on Instagram under Tony Vallance or Neuro Dad Life. I’d love for you to be part of that. I’m really focused on understanding and supporting dads—how that connects to parenting, relationships, and play.

Lisa Dion

Amazing. Tony, this has been such a wonderful conversation. I could literally keep talking to you. I’m learning so much, reflecting, and loving this time with you. Thank you so much.

Tony Vallance

It’s been such a pleasure. Thank you for your questions—I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

Lisa Dion

Absolutely. Okay, listeners, thank you so much for tuning in. Wherever you are in the world, whatever you’re up to, I’m going to use Tony’s words: Be kind to yourself. Take care of yourself. You are the most important toy in the land. Until next time.