Welcome back to the Lessons from the Playroom podcast. I have a returned guest with me today on a topic that we’ve never talked about before in this podcast and a super interesting and important one for all of us as clinicians working with kids. So the amazing Robyn Goobel is who I have with me.
Some of you may have already listened to the prior episode where she was a guest where we talked about working with parents. And some of you may also know her because she has a new amazing book that has come out. We’ll talk about this later, but it’s raising kids with big baffling behaviors.
I’m going to say a little bit about Robyn here, and then I’ll have her say a hello. So, first of all, Robyn has well, say it’s you, Robyn. I think you get the award for my favorite bio that I’ve ever read.
Yes, I was aiming for that. Your bio is so good, and it so captures you, and I think that’s part of the magic of you, Robyn. In all the work that you do, you do so much for parents and caregivers who are in a position of supporting kids with really big, challenging baffling behaviors, lots of trauma and whatnot.
You’ve done huge things for that community. So, listeners, check out this bio. So Robyn Gobbel. She loves coffee. Pink. You’ve been to the concert three times? Four the latest. Did you have, like, front row seats? We did have front row seats. Okay. I was like, what’s happening here? I saw so amazing and everything about the brain. Once recently, her teenager went ballistic on her for getting another glitter coffee mug in the mail. Robyn loves cultivating deep resonant connections with anyone who’s up for it and especially fond of all the grownups in the world who love and care for kids impacted by trauma. So these are the helpers healers, educators, and parents, basically, listeners, all of you, her favorite thing ever, beside those glittery coffee mugs.
Yes. That’s so fun. At a pink concert, you can is teaching anyone who will listen to harness the power of neuroscience so they can cultivate deep resonant connections.
What would change in the world if we could all do that? To see be change. You can get your hands on all sorts of free resources, including her own podcast, Everyone, which is called The Baffling Behavior Show. She is the author of Raising Kids with Big Baffling Behaviors brain Body Sensory Strategies That Really Work.
And that’s the book that I just announced. So with all of that, Robyn, thank you for coming back and being on the podcast with me. Thank you for having me back.
This is going to be fun. It’s going to be totally fun. And we’re going to talk about the brain, since you love talking about the brain, but more specifically, how to teach kids about the brain, which is, I think, super interesting.
I think sometimes as clinicians, we think, oh, that’s a good idea, but how would you actually go about that? Or why would you go about that? So before we get into the why, how did this even come to your thinking that this is something that you wanted to focus on? Think, like, so many things, it kind of just emerged, and one day you notice, like, oh, I’m spending a lot of time doing this thing, or, oh, I’ve noticed this. I mean, honestly, it’s been super helpful in my know that when I kind of discovered this field and Dan Siegel and interpersonal neurobiology and all the mean, my relationship with myself changed dramatically, right? For me to have the moment of, like, oh, there isn’t something horribly wrong with me, all of this actually can make sense. And it seems like it makes a lot of sense that the kids we work with need that same experience, whether it’s taught really directly or way less directly and more implicitly and more through metaphor.
But getting to know the parts of themselves and why these baffling things are happening for them. I just know it’s changed my life and it’s changed my relationship with people that I’m in who sometimes have baffling behaviors. So it made a lot of sense to me that these kids and their grown ups really needed some ways to also make sense of what was happening for them.
Yeah. I love this so much, Robyn. I’ve often had the thought know, we’re all born with a body, and we’re all born with a brain.
We’re all born with a nervous system, but we don’t all receive education on why it does what it does or why it responds, how it responds. And it’s sort of this weird thing of walking through the world with this amazing resource of information and this amazing resource of, basically, feedback. That’s how I look at it.
I don’t know if that’s the word you would use, but I think of it as just like, this constant feedback that’s letting me know what’s going on with me or how I’m doing or what’s up for me. And we don’t learn about that. Right.
It’s bizarre. It is really bizarre. We don’t take the time to really I don’t know if we think it’s too hard or too complicated or too relevant, but I also think because we don’t spend time knowing about it, then, of course, because our brain does this, it just makes up its own story, and then we kind of get locked into that story.
We lose our curiosity, and rarely the brain doesn’t care about if the story is right. It’s just making up a story. And so often, then, that story about why we do what we do or why we behave the way that we behave or why we’re in relationship, the way that we’re in relationship becomes very harsh and judgmental and critical and shaming, and then we just lose all of our curiosity about it.
So beautiful. Okay, so I think you’ve done a beautiful job there of, like, the why, right? And you didn’t say this word, but I’m hearing empower the kids. Absolutely empower the kids.
Empower the grown ups to understand themselves more fully. Well, that’s a bit more of self mastery, right, and their own connection and relationship with themselves. Yeah, for sure.
I mean, there’s so much research that shows that if we have some idea about why something is happening or we at least just have a space to be curious, that there’s a why, even if we don’t know what the why is. But we just are, like, there’s got to be a why. We do feel more empowered to be able to make shifts and changes.
Right. We’re not just swept away by these mystical processes we can’t understand. So, yeah, we start to feel like, I can be empowered.
I can have some potential mastery over this. But even before that, I think what it does for our relationship and connection with ourselves and ushering in that compassion piece that really is the clincher for me about why it’s so important. Yeah.
So let’s get into some of the how to’s or how you think about this. How do you conceptualize? Is this like, an age range? Is this with their grown up in the room? Without their grown up in the room? Educate us, Robyn. How do we think about this? I think it’s all of the above.
I mean, the very first thing I’m doing is thinking about that I’m communicating to anybody who walks through my my walks into being in relationship with me that I think the brain is important, and I’m curious about it. And so I have pictures of brains up, and I have brain puzzles and brain stuffed animals. And even if I’m not talking about the brain per se right.
I think it’s really this message of I think that this is important, and I think implicit in that is and I think it’s probably related to why you’re here. Right. And these kids are coming in because everybody’s mad at them for their terrible behaviors that they have.
So I think that really sets an extremely important, implicit stage. And I encourage parents to do similar. So in recent time, this wasn’t true all of my career, but recently I’ve developed more and more graphics and illustrations and stuff that kind of go along with the specific way I talk about the brain.
And I really encourage parents to print them out, hang them on their fridge, even if you never talk about it, because, of course, some kids, you start talking about something like feelings or anything, right? Anything kind of social emotional development, they just flip out at you shut up, right? So you don’t necessarily have to talk about it. But I do find their value and just, like, print this out, hang it on your fridge again. I think it just communicates like, hey, we believe in this family that there’s something else going on underneath these behaviors that we spend a lot of time being really frustrated about.
We believe there’s something else going on with them than just that you’re a really bad kid. That’s kind of where I start, is kind of this implicit, like, hey, we believe this is important. Just like when you walk into anybody’s space, right, you get an idea of the kinds of things that they think are important.
Well, one of the things that I’m so tickled by as you’re talking is you are literally embodying the very thing that you’re saying. So listeners, those of you that are only listening from an auditory you don’t have the visual. As I am looking at Robyn right now, behind her is a model of the brain, and as she’s talking, it’s just right there.
And that’s clearly you’re putting that there to say that’s something that’s meaningful for me, and I’m curious about it. So thanks for just embodying literally the very thing that you’re talking about. Even if we never had a conversation about the brain, I would know that that was super important.
Yeah. And I do think that that matters and that’s meaningful. And I think that kids of all ages, whether it’s overt or not, they notice that.
And then, of course, their parents I work really closely with parents clinically. In fact, at this point, I only work with parents, but while I was working with kids, I worked really closely with their parents. So for me, it starts there and then after that, it really depends.
Such an obnoxious thing to say, but it really depends. I mean, it really depends so much on the child’s age. It depends on what their interests and curiosities are.
It kind of depends on what stage of therapy are we at? What prior knowledge do they have about the brain? Right? Like, sometimes kids could walk into the room and they could see my brain poster. There’s a brain poster in the middle of the Mind Up curriculum workbooks. And so I had that laminated and up into my office, and some kids come in, and they sit down, and they start telling you stuff about their brain that you don’t even know.
My approach with that kid might be a little bit different, but less important than I want to teach kids about the hippocampus and the prefrontal cortex, which I’m happy to do that as well. But less important than that is I want to teach this child that we can make sense of the inner processes that are driving their behavior. Even little kids tiny like toddlers can begin to have the either explicit overt information that we give them about the difference between feelings and sensations and actions.
Right? But even if I’m not overtly teaching it, I think me holding those ideas in mind and interpersonal neurobiology would confirm this. That us as the grown ups just holding these ideas in mind, if I can see their behavior, us, separate from them, right, and get super curious and see what’s underneath all of this that that matters, even if I never even really speak it overtly out loud to them. So with kids in the playroom, it’s just so wildly different.
Some kids I’m doing, like, straight therapy with, I’m really talking about anything explicit at all, but I’m still holding in mind this idea about them. And then with some kids, we’re doing more projective metaphor, kind of what you usually think about when we’re thinking about especially child centered play therapy. And then I’m thinking about how do I help them develop a relationship with themselves through the way I’m reflecting on them, through the way that I’m noticing them and their play and what they’re doing.
Over the years, in collaboration with kids, I’ve developed this common way of talking about the brain, where I talk about their owl and their watchdog and their possum brain or their owl watchdog and possum pathways. And so I will use that language usually as I’m making just reflections, perhaps on what’s happening in the sand tray or what’s happening in their pretend play that they’re doing. I might say something about their watchdog brain or I might say something about my watchdog brain.
Right? Like, if I’m having a really intense experience or their possum brain or their possum pathway. And for the most part, it’s super intuitive to kids, they know exactly what I’m talking about, and that starts that separation of me from my behaviors. Right.
You start to watch that their observing self start to emerge. And I think what’s been really helpful and as I reflect back on why I’ve kind of developed and used these characters, is I personally find it a lot easier to make a relationship with my watchdog parts and my Possum parts than my Amygdala or my hippocampus. Just the language itself makes it a little bit more user friendly.
Yes. So, Robyn, I know you go into a lot of depth about each one of these in the books, which listeners this is one of the many reasons to get this book, but will you just give us just a quick overview for some people if they’re like, I’m not quite sure what she’s talking about. I’m not quite sure what she means by that.
That might just be kind of cool just to hear your language and why you chose those animals. Sure. So I’ve kind of over the years merged together in a way Dr. Perry’s neuro sequential model and some of his ideas and Dr. Porges’s polyvagal theory. And so, yeah, to use owl watchdog and possum animals, nothing about that is particularly creative or unique.
Right. Lots of folks are using that kind of metaphor. And I’m sure that’s how I landed on it.
And in fact, I’m positive I know who the child is that this all really kind of started with. And we did make a chart of kind of his different stages of activation and what he called his washtar brand. I can still totally see it in my head.
We laminated it and we made out these I’m a terrible drawer, but that kids thinks that’s really funny. So I drew these animals at different stages of growling or barking. And then we wrote out for him specifically what did we know about him when he was at that level of activation.
I think this kid came up with five different levels and it was so crucial in the way that he got to know himself. And then I think this is the order it happened in, but who know? Then I remember reading Dr. Perry is the boy who raises a dog and really looking at his state dependent functioning and arousal continuum and so on his arousal continuum, he has calm and then he has alert, alarm, fear, and terror.
And I’m like, well, that’s kind of what this kid told me about his inner experience, which is one of my absolute most favorite thing about kids anyways. They’re just so much more truly connected to themselves than the grownups are. And so this kid truly outlined like, oh, this is exactly he is saying this like his alert level watchdog alarm and fear and terror.
And then Dr. Perry also has his dissociation continuum, which we would correlate like this dorsal vagal branch. And so just as I was kind of being able to see kind of from a bird’s eye view with my owl brain right these ways.
That the theory. And what the scientists were telling us, like, oh, but the kids are telling me the exact same thing. Which, I mean, how often do we notice that the kids knew the stuff way faster than the scientists did.
And then it just made Dr again, dr. Perry has these four different levels alert, Alarm, Fear, and terror. And he’s got his arousal continuum and his dissociation continuum.
And then Porges doesn’t have them. But Porgis talks about sympathetic activation and then your vagal break. And specifically in this one, I’m thinking about the dorsal vagal break.
And so I took alert, alarm, fear and terror. And I just gave them character names based on what the characters felt like to the kids, essentially based on what the kids told me was happening for them, that just helped it all make a lot more sense. The alarm for your terror thing makes a lot of sense if you’re reading a book and you’re a scientist, but a little bit less sense, I think, if you’re a kid.
Walk the listeners through it. So the first animal is so let’s do the watchdog and possum pathways first, and that’ll be easier way to conceptualize it. So when we’re feeling unsafe and we activate the protective parts of our nervous system, we have two separate pathways, energy pathway and the less energy pathway, right? The accelerator, the brake, stimulation versus shutdown.
And so that activation side, that sympathetic nervous system, that’s the Watchdog pathway. And the four levels of Watchdog that I have are the What’s Up Watchdog, right, who’s kind of still connected to their thinking owl brain. And it’s taking more information like what’s going on here? Something seems not right, but I’m not quite sure.
And that’s the part of our kids pathways or brains or bodies or cells or whatever that we really want to strengthen. Kids go way past that one, right? They don’t really engage their curious What’s Up Watchdog brain that often. At least the kids that I see, the kids that come to my office.
So that’s the one I’m always thinking about. I really want to strengthen the What’s Up? Watchdog. Then I have the Ready for Action Watchdog, which has lots of energy in its arms and its legs, and it’s like ready to attack, but it’s not attacking yet.
The Back Off Watchdog is growling, barking, swearing, cussing, being really defiant, using their mouths. And then the terror from Dr. Perry’s language, terror is my Attack Watchdog, which know physical aggression.
And then on the possum side, we have the La La Land possum. So that’s the very first stage just kind of checked out. That’s really what the kids and their parents are saying.
They’re just in La La Land. And then the trickster possum is my favorite, but that might be because that’s mine protector in the world. But the trickster possum we talk about has like a mask of the owl brain.
And so there’s lots of people pleasing maybe, or some appeasement or really it’s on the dissociation continuum because it’s a dissociation from self. How can I be who you need me to be so that you’re okay and I lose all connection to myself? So that’s the trickster possum. And then we have the shutdown possum and the play dead possum.
So these four stages represent increasing levels of activation on one side or dissociation on the other side. You know what’s so cool about what you have done is you’ve nuanced it. I mean, there’s so many models out there, Robyn, where they got different animals representing the different parts of the brain, but the fact that you went in and nuanced it on a continuum, from a continuum perspective is just so unique and I think so useful.
I know also that I love this piece around like, it was the kids that helped you really put this together, because it makes me think of the creativity that can come into play with helping the child identify their own states, and maybe they have their own animals, for sure. And I’m really clear with that when I’m teaching. I just taught play therapist last week, and I invited them.
Bring things from your playroom that could represent owls, watch hogs, or possums. It doesn’t have, first of all, possum toys. Hard to find.
There’s that. But I’m like, we don’t need it’s just fun to see what do people bring in that in their body feels like represents these different pathways so that we can be so clear. Like, listen, I don’t care what you call them.
That’s completely irrelevant to me. Like, look, here’s a Tyrannosaurus rex. Or I remember a little one who had their leopard brain.
That was the attacking one. And so I think when we have a framework, then that actually opens us up to have a lot of permission and safety to shift it around. We don’t have to stay rigid in it.
And yeah, that is so fun, really, to see how kids are already using this before we’ve ever given them any actual language. And we might not want to give them language. We might want to hold off on that, but I think from a therapist perspective, if we can conceptualize their play in this way, that helps us show up in a true embodied, like, all of you gets to come here.
All of your behavior makes perfect sense. Well, for me to really believe that, I have to be able to make sense of these kids behaviors. So learning about it in this way and then making it playful, of course, has really helped me.
I’m thinking, too, just the power of even bringing this in for the I love that you call them their grown up. I love that so much. Right? They’re grown up.
They’re grown ups in their life. I love it. It’s so great.
Kind of what you were just saying. If the grown up can see their child’s behaviors for what they are and can understand where they’re at in the brain on the continuum, well, the creativity that then can emerge within them from a parenting perspective, for sure. How to intervene or what might be useful or not, or even thinking, like, the self love for the grown up on, like absolutely.
So, yeah, my watchdog went to stage four. Okay, so what does that mean about me as a human being? What does that mean about there’s so much normalization, which is so cool. I want to come back around and throw out some other fun ideas about how play therapists can creatively help kids with this in the playroom.
Anything you want to say about the owl before I move us forward in the conversation? There actually is because I think because of how the idea of the owl is used so often, like in western culture, it doesn’t mean exactly what I often mean. The owl brain isn’t just the thinking logical, taking math tests, right? If we’re going to go back to Porges’s work, the owl pathway is this ventral vagal experience of safety, first of all, and social engagement and connection to ourself and to each other, and that we want to really keep in mind that the owl pathway, the ventral vagus, is our preferred state. Like, our body wants to go there.
We really want our owl brain to be in charge. And that feels crucial, I think, for the therapist to really hold in mind that we’re longing for our owl brain to be in charge and to let us be connected to ourselves and to each other and to experience safety and presence with ourselves and one another. I work with kids whose behaviors are so strange, and so sometimes that’s all I can do is just remind myself, like something inside of them is longing for safety, is longing for connection, even though everything on the outside is basically giving me two middle fingers and spitting in me and clearly wants nothing to do with relationship.
But if I can just picture just picture this scared owl that’s afraid and has flown away and is like, kind of cowering somewhere to be like, when is it going to be safe? When is it going to be safe to come back? And remembering those pieces and also remembering that all of these pieces are so protective, I think more important than even kind of trying to understand the physiology of any of it, but, yeah, that the owl brain wants to be in charge. Humans want to fall into that space of connection and safety and co regulation. So I do like to remind people of that a lot.
We’re not just talking about being thinking and logical. We’re thinking about this safe, connected, connected to self space that’s the owl beautiful. So let’s go back into how do you teach this? So we’ve already thrown out this idea of, well, sometimes kids already have their own knowledge, so how do we deepen that or expand on that? How do we help them identify their own states? And maybe they can come up with their own characters, art all the things normal.
All of us have the things we love in our office and that we tend to be more drawn to. So I think it’s really helpful, of course, to have things in your playroom that can be representative of these different states. Again, I’m kind of preferential to this whole owl washdog possum thing, so I have lots of those, but we don’t have to be I mean, there’s so many different stuffed animals and puppets and Sandra figures.
And then of course, sometimes kids are not projective playing like that at all, but they’re really embodying those parts of themselves. And a therapist just told me last week about a kid who always puts her in the role of coach and then they’re trying to figure out basically how to play the rules by the rules of the game, right? And so just through this model, then she’s seeing like, oh, he’s kind of turning me into his owl brain, right? And then the way that this child is figuring out this relationship and doing all this cool stuff and I’m sure this particular therapist is never going to use watchdog owl and possum language because that’s not the point, right? The point is that especially in this way that this therapist is kind of starting to be curious about what might be happening, we have no idea what the kid’s really doing. Think when we can be curious about it and assume that it all makes sense, then we are inviting the child to start to believe that about themselves as well.
So anyway, I’m got a little off topic there. But yeah, I have stuffed animals, puppets, dress up kind of stuff. Although dress up was never really my thing.
We all have our thing that we tend to do a lot, right? Doll house stuff, picture coloring, art making things. I have coloring pages. I’m even thinking like movement.
Let’s oppose a pose, like a gesture or something that represents this part of you. And it feels totally I just got this my own little creative burst here of when we really understand the parts. Then even if we’re put into a role, we can offer even education of the part through our reflections, reflections back and even just deepening.
Like you said, we’re teaching about the brain, but we’re not actually naming the part of the brain, but we’ve been put in the part of the brain so we can be that particular part of the brain. There’s so much creativity. I love this.
I think sometimes as play therapists, sometimes play therapists get stuck with and wanting the script. Well, just tell me how to do it. Just tell me what page it’s on so I can follow that worksheet or that protocol.
And not to say those aren’t amazing sometimes, but what I’m loving about this conversation is just find a creative way to help the kid understand themselves. Yes. I mean, really, sometimes I am taking kids and we’re sitting down at the table in my office and it feels like school a little bit, right? It’s not necessarily my preference of how to be, but that’s exactly what kids need.
And maybe even at first when they’re like, what’s this new place and how do I figure it out and how do I make sense of this place in a way that is familiar with the other places I go? Like school. So they are pulling out the coloring pages, and we’re talking much more cognitively. But that cognitive discussion and the beginning to have some awareness, if nothing else.
As we’re talking about all this stuff, kids are like, oh, it’s not just me. Everybody has a watchdog brain. And that’s also really why I like to bring there’s a lot of reasons to bring parents in, but that’s a huge piece of it.
One, I like parents to be involved as I’m kind of helping kids come into compassion with their parsive selves. I like parents to be really involved in that so that they can also do that. But I also like kids to see that their parents have watchdog brains and possum brains, and so do I.
And sometimes they overreact and sometimes they overreact in ways that cause some trouble for us or for other people. But our watchdog or possum brains are always working so hard to keep us safe. It’s just that sometimes they’re working too hard, or they’ve had experiences in their past where they learned things were really unsafe, and so they got used to working too hard.
And we have to help them now see that their owl brain actually is stronger than it used to be, or their grown ups have a stronger owl brain, and their owl brain can help their watchdog or their possum brain be safe as well. So the piece of even when it seems like it makes absolutely no sense or it’s hurting this child or hurting other people, if we can look at it through this lens of curiosity and compassion, that’s all that really matters. I just have found that the characters and the animals make it easier to do that.
Like I said, I think it’s easier to make a relationship with my watchdog brain than my Amygdala, but maybe not everyone feels that way. Amygdala who. So awesome.
Robyn. Robyn, will you tell our listeners where they can go get your book? You can get it basically anywhere. So you get it wherever you like to buy books, you like to get them from Amazon? Get them from Amazon.
I’ve been telling people about my local bookstore, Schuler Books, here in Grand Rapids, because I think it’s kind of fun to direct people to my local independent bookstore. You can get them directly from my publisher. Just type it into the search engine.
Go wherever you want. Yeah, awesome. And then you also, in addition to your book, you do pretty amazing things.
So I know I mentioned the podcast, so will you say the podcast name again? It is now called the Baffling Behavior Show. It used to be parenting after trauma, so if you’ve heard that before, I changed it to Baffling Behavior Show. And then you also have some pretty special communities that you have created and courses.
So fill us in on that, too. Before I do that, I’ll also say I just have tons of free resources on my website, so they’re really crafted with parents in mind. But therapists are telling me how useful they are in their work as well.
I have ebooks webinars infographics. I have a free resources page that is just full of free stuff that will be useful for your clinicians reading, but it’s also for them to offer to the parents that they work with. In addition to the free stuff, I have two paid programs.
I have a virtual online membership community that is primarily for parents. We say parents of kids with vulnerable nervous systems and big baffling behaviors. Most of them are parenting kids with a history of complex trauma, although the part of the community that’s parenting kids with baffling behaviors for all sorts of reasons is growing and growing.
And that’s really inspiring to bring all these different parents together who have I don’t know, it’s just really amazing. We have professionals in that community as well, but it’s geared towards your parenting experience. And my whole point is to just bring to the grown ups what we’re trying to bring to their kids, which is lots of connection, compassion, co, regulation, curiosity for their behavior.
They need the same thing the kids do. That’s called the club. And then I also have developed a professional training program.
Parents are literally telling me every day that they cannot find people to help them, whether that be a therapist or a parent coach or that their educators at their child’s school doesn’t know anything about this way of seeing kids. So I decided to see if I could try to help that. And I have a year long it’s a very intensive professional immersion training program that is, I say it’s for parenting professionals.
You don’t have to be a therapist to be in it. And in fact, I hope more and more not therapists join. I feel super passionately about getting this information into the hands of non clinicians.
There’s just simply not enough of us, because I have had a handful of Synergetic Play therapists that have taken your program, and it is like five star review, just like, across the board. Robyn so you’ve created something very unique and very special and very extraordinary. So I’m just going to personally put in a plug.
Listeners, if you struggle working with parents and you want that extra layer of training and you want that extra layer of support to help you, please consider this course with Robyn. Like I said, the reviews that are coming back that I’m hearing are just off the wall. Well, I love to hear that.
We’ve got to love these parents as hard as we love their kids. We have to, and we can. We know exactly how to because we love their kids and the parts of the parents we don’t like are their kid parts.
And so all the tools are right at our fingertips. If we can just be in community in a place that really allows them to kind of bloom. And so it’s been really rewarding to help professionals feel more confident working with parents.
Well, Robyn, as we wrap up, any final thought or anything that you want to share that you feel like we weren’t able to cover, the thought that comes to mind if I have play therapists listening is just 50 billion bucket loads of gratitude for everyone listening. And for you, too, of course, but we’re doing really hard work. Your listeners are doing really hard work, and they’re not being told that very often.
And it is a miracle that they’re still doing it after the last couple of years and after everything that’s happening, that it just keeps showing up every day, because we love kids. So thank you. Thank you.
Thank you, Robyn. Listeners, reminder if you want more of Robyn, go back and listen to the prior episode where we talked about working with parents. So if you want another little dose, go check that out.
Robyn, thank you for being you. Thank you for having the conversation and super grateful for you. You, too.
Thank you. You’re welcome. All right, listeners, wherever you are in this world, take care of yourselves. You are the most important toy in that playroom.
