I have with me an incredibly important person in my life that I am excited to introduce to you. If you do not recognize this person that is with me, this is Jason Gaddis. I’m going to read his bio because it is truly one of the coolest and funniest BIOS that I have read.
And then I will share a little bit more on a personal level on how I know Jason and how much I appreciate Jason. So Jason Gaddis, author, podcaster speaker, and I love this personal trainer for relationships, is a global leader. True that.
On Interpersonal Conflict and Connection. He got tired of complaining that street level relationship skills are not taught in school. So he went ahead and founded the Relationship School, an impact based company dedicated to helping individuals, couples and teens work out their differences in order to have indestructible relationships.
He is the creator of Interpersonal Intelligence and Present Centered Relationship Coaching. Did I get that right? Presence centered relationship coaching and the getting to zero method. His new book, Getting to Zero how to Work Through Conflict in Your High Stakes Relationships, which I have read is absolutely amazing.
Even had the privilege of giving you a review on it. It was a really inspiring book to read. Was voted editor’s choice, best nonfiction and best leadership and business book in 2021 on Amazon.
Holy cow, jason, props to you. That is amazing. He’s been married to his amazing wife since 2007.
He has two beautiful kids. They live in Boulder, Colorado. And this is the part that I love so much about your bio.
When he doesn’t live and breathe this relationship stuff with his family, he pretty much gets his ass handed to him. The last sentence for me is, I think one of the things I love most about you, Jason, and one of the reasons why I want you on here, because you get it. Like you get relationship and you work it and you work it regularly.
And when you teach, you’re not talking from some, I don’t know, construct or this is what you think you should do. You’re in the trenches on a daily basis, teaching and growing. And you specialize in conflict, my friend, which is what we are going to talk about today.
So, Jason, welcome to this conversation. Thanks, Lisa. Great to see you.
Great to be here. Yeah. So, Jason, just to orient our audience, we go way back.
I was actually trying to remember how far back we go. I think maybe like 2005. Yeah, probably right around there.
GI R. We met at the Gestalt Institute of the Rockies. Studying gestalt together.
We’ve been friends. You have been an accountability partner for me at times with my business. You’ve been a huge support for me personally and professionally, and it really is an honor to have a conversation with you right now.
Yeah. Thanks, Lisa. Yeah.
I love our friendship. And you. I love you.
And we do go way back. We do. Awesome.
So talk to us first a little bit about the relationship school, and then we’re going to get into conflict. What is this? I got tired of complaining that no one’s teaching relationship stuff about yeah, I mean, you and I agree. I think here that life, what an essential life skill for our young people to learn.
And yet in school, there’s no formal curriculum or class on it. And in some schools there’s more social emotional learning, which I love that that’s happening, but I just had a lot of relationship pain and carnage in my life, and so it became a high value to try to figure it out. Eventually I got to work on myself and was like, I got to solve this problem.
And then I learned some things and wanted to help other people. And I just think if you can get the relationship part of your life dialed, it seems to me if you have really close, solid friendships and a partner, perhaps all the other challenges in your life seem a little easier because you’ve got someone at your side or a couple of people at your side. Great.
So let’s take that into we’ll come back, listeners at the end and talk a little bit more about where you can get information about the relationship school, which is where you really can go and learn more relationship type of skills. But I specifically wanted to talk about conflict because conflict comes up in the therapeutic relationship. It also comes up in our own lives.
I know as play therapists, we’re often supporting the parents and caregivers that we work with in navigating conflict. And conflict seems to be one of the life experiences that seems to challenge a lot of people. And therapists in particular sometimes really struggle with it.
Sometimes they’re even a bit conflict avoidant about it. So I want to talk about conflict. Why is it hard? Let’s just start there.
Why do you think it’s so conflict is so challenging for people? Yeah, I mean, we might each have our own individual answer for that, but I think there’s three main reasons that I’ve found over my career. One is our biology, which you teach a lot about, is how we’re wired. We’re social mammals.
We really dislike being outcast from the herd and disconnected from other people. We are wired to belong and connect. So it’s very, very threatening to be in conflict with someone, knowing that that could be at stake, that I could lose this relationship or I could get kicked out of the family or the tribe or the herd because that’s life threatening.
So we’re wired that way. And then the second reason is our history. A lot of us, especially therapists, grew up in families where we had some challenges, a lot of relational challenges.
Parents didn’t. They were either really aggressive and loud and hurt us or they were neglectful and distant and we were kind of left on our own to figure it out. Or there’s some everything in between.
So when we get into a fight or an argument with an adult partner, for example, it brings up all of our history of the relational blueprint is what I call it, through our family and how we did relationships and how we did conflict. And often it didn’t go well. So that’s in the mix in an adult relationship, which makes it hard.
And then finally we didn’t learn, as we just discussed, like none of us actually got a formal lesson in how to repair. For example, like, hey, when you fuck up with someone or you mess up or you hurt their feelings, this is how you make it better. This is how you work through it and get back to a good place.
So those are the three main reasons I find. Yeah, I’m so glad that you mentioned repair. I find that that is often such a missing skill in a lot of people’s relationship repertoire.
I see it so often in the parent child dynamic, which then makes sense if someone doesn’t know how to repair well, they never got that experience of someone repairing with them that they’re going to turn around and then not repair well with their own kids or not repair well with their partner. And then it just goes on and on and on and on and on. But I love all the information that’s coming out now about how the repair, the coming back into relationship is such part of the healing component of navigating rupture, which happens.
Yeah, that’s really what my book is about. It’s how to get to zero, being how to get back to a good place. And so the entire book and just my work in general, is how do we fix it and clean up the mess after we made a mess or someone hurt us or we hurt someone.
And it actually is the hallmark that builds a secure relationship. People that know how to work through conflict and do repair well build security over time. Yeah, such permission to be a bit more human in that.
Yeah, a little bit more messy. A little bit more messy. Not about trying to get it right, which I think I want to bridge this over to therapists, because I think sometimes therapists fall in this fear of, oh, I want to be liked, or I don’t want to cause pain, or I don’t want to upset someone.
And so they avoid the rupture, actually. They think that they’re avoiding the rupture, but the not actually having the conversation actually creates the rupture, even if the rupture isn’t an overt rupture. That’s been my experience anyway.
What I see happen a lot. But I’m thinking in particular, I’ve supervised so many therapists over the years, and it’s like, I want to have this hard conversation with the parents or caregivers, and I’m scared or I don’t know how. And it just brings up all those feelings of insecurity and adequacy, and what if they don’t like me? How do we begin to move towards that uncomfortable experience of conflict, knowing that it’s actually quite necessary? Yeah.
Let me speak to two points first before I answer that question that you brought up. One is that in my experience, every time we avoid and this is good in terms of answering your question there every time we avoid a conflict, we create one inside of ourselves. So now we have two conflicts to deal with, and that’s because we’re stuffing it.
We’re withholding it. We’re withholding our truth, we’re withholding how we really feel, and we’re not saying it. And that place that has nowhere to go but inside.
Now I have a part of me that wants to tell the truth and a part of me that’s too scared to tell the truth. And those two are in conflict. So that’s just important for anyone listening to remember.
And that cost gets higher and higher the more you continue to stuff it. Stuff your truth, avoid the conflict, avoid the hard conversation. So I think the view is so important, which is conflict in and of itself is not a problem.
Yes, we get hurt there. Yes, we hurt other people there. But again, like, the body, there’s healing.
That can happen when we mess up. And so if people just start to embrace that conflict is an opportunity and just wake up this mindset that in and of itself, it’s just energy. And if I want good relationships, this has to be a part of my toolkit, is how to work through this stuff.
So having that just a mindset and that view, I think is important. And then decide, like, look, do you want to become a more empowered person? Do you want to feel more connected to yourself? Do you want to express yourself more fully? Do you want to have more secure relationships? Well, if the answer is yes to any of those, then conflict is the path. Adversity is actually what builds strong relationships.
And then we can set context by if you and I are in a conflict, for example, Lisa, we can have a conversation about the conversation. So it’s like, hey, Lisa, are you open to a conversation that could be a little bit crunchy? Because I want to talk about what happened between us yesterday or last week or that email you sent me or whatever. So then we get consent.
Basically. We’re getting someone, we’re enrolling them into the conversation. I think that’s probably the first step.
That’s so good. It reminds me of how easy it is because there’s all the uncomfortable feelings to just launch in, like launch in and let me just, let me just get through the uncomfortable piece without the initial almost like assessment of readiness. Is this the time? Is this the space? I’m ready.
Are you open? Are you open? And now we just want to jump past the uncomfortable and just, hey, I need to talk to you. I got to get my feelings out. I have to get my feelings out.
Okay. So that’s actually really quite lovely. So step one is for us to recognize that there’s an invitation that needs to happen or that there is a great so let’s play this out.
I’m a therapist and I recognize that there is a hard conversation that I need to have with one of the caregivers of one of the kids that I’m working with. I’m really nervous and I’m really scared about. So so step one is I open up the invitation.
Is that where this yeah, it’s like, mr. Johnson, I’d like to talk to you about your son who is in player therapy with me, of course, as you know. And I have just a couple of things that are very important that I talk to you about, about some of the parenting that’s going on in your home and are you open to this conversation? And of course that could trigger a very insecure parent.
But remember, we’re not trying to not trigger people. Therapists get overly careful here. I don’t want to trigger them.
And it’s like, good luck. You’re not going to get to do that. We all get triggered and being triggered is not a problem, so stop worrying about whether they’re going to react or not.
And yes, you already have the skills to be skillful, so you got to sometimes just bring it up. Okay, so what if they say no? Wow. I’d say, okay, well, for the treatment to continue with your son Johnny or Billy, whatever, it’s going to be hard for me to advise you on what to do between sessions if we don’t have a conversation about what’s going on in the home and some of the parenting.
I’m hearing you modern your language, you’re clear, you’re direct, you’re being honest, you’re not being mean. You’re just putting it out there and naming what needs to be named. Yeah.
Now let’s go the other way. Let’s say, yeah, you can sense that the parents a bit nervous, but they’re like, okay, sure, there’s an openness are there tips or ideas that then therapists can use as they then begin to navigate the hard stuff? As the hard stuff’s coming out? Yeah. So this would be different if we were having a conversation around a partner.
So if we’re talking about in a marriage and the therapist is married to someone and you might be thinking, shit, I need to have a hard conversation with my husband. So we could do model that one. This one’s a little different because we’re in a professional relationship, the person’s paying us, so it’s a little different.
And still we want to bring what we know so they’re open. And I might say, well, with parents in particular, I like to put it back on them and say, do you think there’s anything you’re doing at home or not doing that’s impacting your kid? So I get them to think a little about it and self reflect and go, Let me chew on that. Because what I see about your son’s behavior X, Y, and Z, is sometimes kids are doing that because they see that at home, for example.
And it’s tricky with parents who are maybe not as open minded. Right. They might defend and lie and withhold because they feel shame and guilt and they don’t want to admit.
Again, I’m into enrolling people into a conversation. Can we have a conversation about what’s going on at home? And I might even ask, are you open to some feedback? Are you open to reflections? Are you open to what I see? I’m trying to suss out the parents open mindedness for new information and to be confronted and challenged. Yeah.
Recognizing that it’s not necessarily about having them be comfortable, it’s just about having the conversation that needs to happen. Do you find that there’s times when maybe after sharing something that maybe felt hard to say and maybe as you’re attuning and getting a sense of their reaction, that there’s a place to then follow up with? I’m curious how that landed for you. Or I’m curious if you’re mad at me.
I’m curious. I’m curious if there’s a party that doesn’t want to bring your child back to see me now that I’ve said that. Yeah, those are all just checking out the impact.
Checking out impact, totally. Yeah. Checking, impact, getting I love every phrase you said.
Yes. I remember when I took a parenting class myself. It was humbling because I needed to be open to feedback.
And then what I could do because I’ve taken a parenting class is I could use that to model to the parent, to disarm them and say, look, I’m about to give you some feedback. I remember when I took a parenting class, the teacher gave me some feedback that was pretty hard to hear, and I got really defensive. But then I worked through it with my wife, and we realized that the parenting teacher was right.
So, hey, you might be feeling some of that too. Yeah. I love that there’s normalizing that this could be uncomfortable and making it relational and making it real.
I like that we’re going down here too, because I think one of the pitfalls sometimes that therapists also fall under is they think that they have to be the expert all the time, and they inadvertently keep this pretty strict hierarchy going versus recognizing there is a relationship. There is a hierarchy, but sometimes you got to step it on down and just talk to somebody as another human being, eye to eye. And I think sometimes therapists struggle with that a little bit because it was really vulnerable.
It’s vulnerable to not be expert. Yeah. And I think we’re living in a time now where the consumer is getting smarter to this, and they don’t like people talking down to them.
They don’t like the expert. They want a real person who’s helping them. And it’s refreshing to be helped by someone who’s a real person.
Yeah. Well, let’s take the conversation over to you said we could maybe talk a little bit about what it looks like in a partnership because our listeners, many of them have partners, best friends or whatever it is, their own kids. So how does it look when the relationship is a much closer relationship? There’s a bit more intimacy in it.
Yeah. And both of these, keep in mind, are high stakes. Like the high stake in the professional relationship is we could lose the client, right.
They could talk shit about us, et cetera. So it is high stakes. It’s just different.
So in a high stakes partnership, bringing up the uncomfortable thing, that, again, what’s at stake is the other person might leave, right, if this really doesn’t go bad or this doesn’t go well. So I might lead with things like, hey, honey, I’m scared to have this conversation with you. I might lead with some vulnerability.
I wouldn’t say that with a client necessarily in a professional situation, but I would with my wife, honey, I’m a little scared to talk about this, or I’m scared to have this conversation about blank, are you open, et cetera. So I’m leading with some vulnerability there and some transparency. And then the first thing I recommend people do is to either do one of two things.
You go in the listening direction, honey, I really want to hear you out about what happened, and I’m just going to listen and not passively listen and nod my head, but I’m going to get in there and make sure I understand what she’s saying, that’s one direction is listening, the other direction is speaking. And speaking needs to start with just complete ownership. I messed up.
Here’s what I did. I raised my voice. I was mean in that text thread that we had.
Yes, you’re right. I blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right.
Complete ownership. Because what we want to do to the other person is disarm them and soften them and help their nervous system come out, come down and help them get back in their social engagement system. So those are a couple of the first things we can do.
Yeah. Beautiful. I just keep hearing, wow, that’s a lot of courage and a lot of vulnerability to show up in that way.
And I keep hearing that that requires us to take the part of us that wants to be right and put it in a drawer for the conversation. Is that accurate? There’s a part of us that has to humble ourselves in some way. Yeah.
We got to chill out and realize, I think we’re all smart enough now to know that right and wrong doesn’t usually get very far in an argument with a partner, and even in the world, if you look around the world. So if we want to get back to a good place, if that’s our goal, we want to feel connected again and feel good again, we can’t lead with I’m right, you’re wrong, and we’ve we’ve got to lead with a lot more curiosity and interest in what the other person’s experience is. We got to understand that their experience and how they saw it is different than ours.
That might not line up, but we can at least seek to understand what their experience is like, and that’s going to help them feel seen and appreciated and cared about. Yeah. Okay.
Let’s say that you chose the path of listening. As you were saying, honey, I really want to hear you. I want to hear what this was like for you.
I want to hear about your experience of me or however that goes. And we’re actively listening. Then what? So I have an acronym that I teach everybody that’s called Lufu.
L-U-F-U lufu. Okay. Lufu.
Lufu. And this is in, I think, chapter eleven in my book. The whole chapter is just lufu.
And it stands for listen until they feel understood. Lufu. And that’s the commitment is, I’m going to sit here until you feel understood.
Not till I think I understand you, but till you feel understood. And I had to set this up with my wife and I because she’d say, you don’t understand me. And I’d say, yes, I do, which was such a waste of time.
It’s like, dude, no. So that took me a couple of years to figure that out. So if we can make a commitment to understanding the person until they feel understood, it’s going to go better.
And there’s eight steps, but I won’t go through all eight. But basically, the couple of the most important ones are I take ownership, I validate their feelings, and I empathize and active. Listening to me is we reflect back what we heard.
The essence. It doesn’t have to be exact therapy speak, but it’s like, oh, so yesterday got it. When I forgot to order the groceries, and then I didn’t pick the kids up on time, and then I was slow to texting you back.
That’s what upset you, and that’s what has you feeling angry and hurt. Did I get that right? Yes. And then I say three words.
That makes sense. That makes sense. That’s the validation part.
So they feel that I’m getting the essence of what they are trying to communicate to me, and I’m validating. Yeah, it makes sense that you got mad and you’re frustrated with me. And then I say, and I did.
I own it. I did. I was late for the kids.
I didn’t order the groceries. I fucked up here. Yes.
True. Can I just pause for a second and share that? That makes sense. Even as you were saying that, and I was imagining that it was in me, like almost an immediate softening and immediate open my heart a little bit more.
That is an impactful. Three words. It is.
Because so many people we grew up in families, when we find ourselves in partnerships, where we have feelings, but we feel made wrong or we’re not received with our feelings. And these three words are so incredibly powerful. You’re right.
Because all of us want to have the experience of my experience is valid, and it has nothing to do with right and wrong, but it’s valid. Yeah, exactly. Wow.
Thank you for bringing those three words into your work and into your teaching, because that’s a piece that is not normally part of conversations that I hear in relationship work. It’s huge. Yeah.
Beautiful. Okay. I had to pause there because that was really impactful.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And therapists can do techniques, so the trick with me is I have a lot of tools, and so I can use the tools and the techniques, but if I’m not there, I’m not present.
I’m in my head. I’m afraid I’m behind a wall. I’m not empathizing.
Everybody needs to understand. It’ll help, maybe, but it’s not going to really take it all the way down to zero because you’re feeling defensive, you’re waiting your turn, you’re feeling scared, you’re feeling hyper vigilant. So it’s a practice, man, to really help myself as I listen, I’m trying to calm down, right.
Because she might be saying things that are flaring me up, like, no, that’s not right, I didn’t do that, or I start feeling defensive. So just disclaimer here. This is difficult for everybody, including me, and it takes time and practice.
Yeah. Like you said, when you’re not working to embody it, you get your ass handed to you. Jason that’s right.
Come into my house. Oh, goodness. I would love for you to say a couple of things about the moments when we are engaging in the conversation and whoever we’re talking to says something, does something, and now all of a sudden, we are no longer in the present moment, but we are smack dab in our history.
So we have been handed this task to stay present with whoever we’re having the conversation with, to say what we want to say, to hold space for them, to listen to empathize. And yet all we can hear is, this is my dad yelling at me, or this is my mom shaming me, or this was that teacher at school that always interrupted me and didn’t give me a voice. And all of a sudden, now all of our projective patterns are right there in the moment.
Transparency, countertransference yeah, completely. And lots of projection going on, right? Yeah, exactly. This is just the deal in high stakes relationships, particularly a partnership where we project our family history onto the person and it feels like it’s happening again all over again.
And we don’t actually see the history necessarily. Like, when I project my mom or dad onto my wife, I don’t necessarily see it in the moment. Right.
I’m just seeing that, no, my wife is acting this way and she’s wrong. It’s kind of what it feels like. But fortunately for your listeners, they have training to understand some of these concepts.
Like, for people that don’t understand, it’s harder even to know that their history is playing out in the moment and they can’t figure out why it’s so frustrating. So if we can, again, slow down, anything we can do to pause to titrate between the conversation and a few breaths, and if we can do it together, even better. If I can say out loud, honey, I’m really struggling right now.
I wonder if there’s history going on here. I’m feeling it’s cloudy and it’s hard for me to see straight. Anything I can do to say I’m open to the possibility that there’s more of the story here than how I see it, I think can help disarm people.
And then later, when we’re regulated, when we’re in the front part of our brain, we can have a conversation about it. And my wife and I do, we’re like, wow, it seems like that issue when I do that thing, it’s like you’re back in your home again feeling invisible, and your dad’s voice is going on and you’re the responsible one, and here you are as a five year old girl, and then she might come back. Like, yes, exactly.
Or no, it’s more like this. I’m actually ten and it was like this. So we can talk about it.
It’s really useful to have some self awareness about our history and how it plays out in the now. Yeah. I want to bring in a piece to jump on what you said in the parent child dynamic, because that is often what we’re working with as play therapists and also therapists who are triggered even by their child clients or just recognizing that there’s activation in the parent child dynamic that they’re working with.
And I think that it’s important to continue to hold that. There’s likely history being played out? And how do play therapists stay really curious about why does this particular child at this particular age feel so activating inside of them? Chances are there’s a mirror going on or this parent child dynamic and what is this child doing or how the child’s responding? How is that bringing to life the parent’s history, parent story? Because I think that’s a place that’s so key if we’re going to talk about dismantling or redoing or integrating, healing, moving through. Yeah, and I love that you put so much attention on this.
It’s so vital because even as a parent right, with my own kids, like, for example, my son a while back was struggling socially, and he was struggling socially at the exact age I struggled socially. And so I, because I hadn’t worked on this, part of myself, started projecting a lot of my fears onto him. And then part of my parenting was coming from that fearful place.
And my wife, thankfully, had helped me out and was like, dude, this sounds like you’re just trying to repattern your shit that came up for you when you were his age. Totally. Listeners make a note of that.
That if you’re in the role of parent or caregiver when the child becomes the age at which you struggled, that will be a place where there will be a higher level of confluence and it’ll be a higher place of not being able to differentiate well between what’s mine, what’s there, what’s my history, what’s happening now? Because the mirror gets really strong. I’m naming this not only to normalize what happens in the home, but also in the playroom. So I see play therapists that start to attract a child of a particular age that are working on a particular struggle, and that’s the client that begins to come to see them.
And that’s a place play therapists to be really mindful of what’s being mirrored back and asking you to go back into your own history and take a peek. Take a peek and work on it, especially because it’s going to get in the way if you don’t put attention on it. And like, you train therapists and I train coaches, relationship coaches, and it’s the same thing.
We call it it’s essentially countertransference, but we call it coach entanglement, where we just get entangled with our clients and invariably we all attract a client who is working on the thing that we’re struggling with or struggled with in the past as a kid. It’s classic. I think it’s awesome because it’s this amazing opportunity to heal, grow, get more self aware, become more effective as a practitioner.
But it’s not usually fun. It doesn’t feel good. Yeah, well, as you know, Avery is almost 17.
And so I feel like I am constantly looking at my life as a teenager and the choices that I made. And I remember about six months ago, she wanted to go somewhere I don’t know, something social. And I had this really overprotective fear response and wanted to really rein her in on that.
Who’s going to be there? And I need to know this, and just got really hardcore with it. And I remember she looked at me and she went, mom, this might be your stuff. You’re freaking out about something that is like, your freak out is not warranted in this situation.
And she was so spot on. I went right back to an experience that I had at her age where I had a lot of freedom, and I ended up experiencing some things that were challenging for me, and my brain unconsciously went to, I’m going to protect her. I’m going to keep her from going through what I went through.
That’s what my unconscious parts were trying to keep her from that. But she was so great. Mom, I think this might be yours.
This is not really making sense to me right now, why you’re acting like this. Such a beautiful reflection. Yeah, totally.
Yeah. So, Jason, let’s orient our listeners to a little bit more about where they can learn more. I am really hoping, listeners, because we all struggle with this, that you’ll at minimum, go buy Jason’s book.
Like I said, it’s a phenomenal book, and we all need to up our skill level on understanding relationship dynamics and conflict and all of that. So first place, where can they get your book? Yeah, anywhere books are sold, really. There’s a fun little quiz they can take@gettingthezerobook.com
if they go there. You can take a little quiz. There’s also a resource guide that goes along with the book.
But yeah, anywhere. Amazon, Barnes, and Nobles, wherever beautiful. And then for therapists, because I know I actually have students that have gone on after training with me and have said, I want to add in more in my repertoire, and have gone on and studied with you and have taken your trainings, which I think is a beautiful dovetail for the work that we do as therapists.
So if there are therapists that want to study with you, want to take some of your courses and up their level, their skill level, where do they go for that? Where do they check out? Yeah, just go to relationshipschool.com. And there’s a place that says there’s a bunch of trainings under, like, courses, I think it’s under a tab called Courses. Everything from an eight week class that you and your partner could take to a nine month class that I designed.
That was the class that we never got in school, like two semester college course that I should have had. It would have saved me a lot of heartache and headache. Or if you we’ve had some of your folks come over and train as relationship coaches because they want to work across state lines or they want to become a coach, they really just nerd out on the relationship thing because it’s a fascination for them.
That’s what we do. That’s our jam. So, yeah, relationshipschool.com
is the best place. You also have a pretty amazing yeah. That you’ve been want.
Can you tell listeners a little bit about podcasts? Because that might be also just a great entry point. Yeah, totally. Yeah.
If you like listening to Lisa, and this is a great way you learn while you exercise or commute and you’re a podcasting kind of consumer like I am. Our podcast is excellent. It’s the relationship school podcast.
There’s interviewed most of the world’s leading experts from Gabor Mate to Dan Siegel and all the Peeps Talisa. And also my wife and I have just lots of conversations about raising kids and kind of what we’re up, you know, needs, attachment, science. We just kind of nerd out on that stuff.
So awesome. Jason, any last message that you want to give the listeners as we wrap up our conversation on conflict? Yeah, just remember, even though my book is full of do this, do that, these are the five steps, the eight steps. It’s like dense.
There’s a lot of tools. If you read the whole thing and you forget everything you read, just make an absolute lifelong commitment to repair and you’re going to be in really good shape. So good.
Awesome. Well, Jason. Thank you.
I appreciate you. I appreciate this conversation. I value you and as a person, and I also value the education that you bring me as your friend because I get to practice this relationally with you too.
So thank you for schooling me when I need to be schooled in this department. I appreciate it so much. Yeah, you’re so welcome.
Right back at you. Awesome. Okay, listeners, thank you so much for joining Jason and I for this incredible conversation.
Please go get the book. Listen to the podcast, go up your learning in this. It’ll not only help you personally, but also as a clinician to navigate the tricky stuff.
And wherever you are in the world, I invite you to take a deep breath. Remember, you are the most important toy in the playroom and take care of yourselves and be well.
