Hi, listeners. I am so excited that you are joining me. I have an amazing guest with us today. I have the one and only Miss Terry Kotman, who’s going to be talking to us about Adlerian Play Therapy.
So thank you for tuning in to this episode from the Lessons from the Playroom podcast. My guess is you’ve heard of Terry before. If you have not, let me share a little bit about her bio with you and then we’re going to have a fun conversation.
So, Terry, in my world, you’re a big deal. You’re a big deal in the play therapy. In the play therapy world, you’ve been a pioneer for this field.
So Terry Cotman is the creator and developer of Adleyan Play Therapy. You’ll hear more about it as we get into this conversation. But she also founded the League of Extraordinary Adlerian, play therapists.
I mean, even the fact that you use the word extraordinary in there is like so unbelievably fun, which is an organization that provides play therapy training and offers a certification program in ed Larian Play Therapy. So listeners, if you get excited as we go through this conversation, you know, that’s available to you. Terry, you are a regular presenter.
You’ve been presenting for years nationally and internationally. You are an author. I have down here 14 books you’ve authored or edited.
So I mean amazing. And then you have some pretty amazing achievements too. So in 2014 just want to say congratulations even before I say this.
In 2014, Terry was granted a lifetime achievement award from the association of Play Therapy. Congratulations to you. In 2017, you were given the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Iowa Association of Play Therapy.
And in 2020, you received a third lifetime achievement award from the North American Society for Edgyrian Psychology. So you are a big think not my mind to a lot of therapists and thus a lot of the children they work with. On behalf of all of them, thank you.
And you’re a big deal to yes. Terry, anything else that you’d love for us to know about you? I think my big accomplishment is that I’ve been married for 46 years and I’m still manly in love with my beloved. Congratulations.
And we raised a kid who’s turned out to be pretty decent, which is also lovely. Yeah, those are my bigger accomplishments. I figure staying married for that long and still liking the person you’re married to is a lot of it’s, because Rick’s a better person than I am.
He’s calm and peaceful and doesn’t get all terry, where is home for you? I live in Cedar Falls, Iowa, which is kind of a medium to small city in Iowa. We moved here partly well because I had a job being a professor here for a while, and then I got promoted to full professor, so I quit to start a play therapy training center. Wonderful.
So I know that some of you might be just audio listening and are not able to see Terry and I right now. So for those of you that just have audio, terry, hold up your hands. Terry.
Terry’s hands are tied eyed at the moment. That’s my dad, too. And you were sharing that you got to do some tie dye yesterday with a young girl.
And so I love this because, Terry, this is my experience of you. I shared with you. I’ve been in some of your trainings before, and if I had one word to describe you, you’re fun.
Like, you are so unbelievably fun, and you’re creative. And I pretty much laughed my way through the training with you. And so you’re over here with your tied eyed hands and all of that.
And I wanted our audience that can just hear right now to have a visual of fun that’s happening on the screen right now. Well, this was probably, like, ten or 15 years ago. I was tie dyeing with some kids, actually, for some sessions, because when I’m working with kids who are perfectionistic, one of the things I do with them is tie dye.
And at that point, my private practice was in our house, and so I was tie dyeing in my kitchen, and I had some extra dye left after they were gone, and I looked around my house and thought, what else could I tie dye? Because I hate throwing dye just down the sink. And so I realized that the thing I had that I could tie dye was my granny panty underwear. So I tiedyed my granny panty underwear, and then I started saying to my friends, if you’re having a bad day and you go to the bathroom and you look down and you’re wearing tie dye underwear, it can’t be a bad day.
And so I started tie dyeing underwear for my friends who were a little skeptical. And then my best friend is a judge, and she regularly texts me the underwear saved somebody five years in prison because it makes her day better. So I started bringing tie dye underwear to the play therapy conference the year that I got the team award.
I was so uncomfortable being, like, the center of attention and not having content to do. I thought I need to distract myself and distract other people. So I brought a suitcase filled with tie dye underwear.
I heard about this. I heard you could get some fun tie dye underwear from Terry Kotman, but what a lovely I mean, it’s so true. How are you in a bad mood if you look down and wearing tie dye? Like, that’s just fun.
Other weird thing I do, which Jacob, our son, gets so embarrassed by, is I read in a magazine a number of years ago that if you find a penny or a coin on the ground and it’s face up, that makes people’s days. That’s one of the things that makes a difference in people’s lives, which I was fascinated by. So every time I get change from a purchase, I see the world with coins and make sure they’re face up.
I was recently teaching in the Netherlands, and I had to have somebody show me what face up and face down was because I was scattering coins on the ground. And one of my friends had not heard this story, so she was following me, and she’s like, Terry, I picked up all this money for no, no, that’s not we’re leaving it. That’s so, Terry, I want to I want to learn a little bit more about you, and I know our listeners probably do also.
What got you started in working with kids? What attracted you, what got you on the journey? Special Ed Teacher my dad was a pediatrician, and so I worked in his office when I was in junior high, in high school, and taught swimming lessons in high school and thought, I know I want to do something with kids then. And so I got certified as a regular ed teacher. And I can I say this? I sucked at it.
I sucked at having 30 kids in my classroom, especially because my internship I worked with 6th graders, and then I got married to Rick and moved to a different state where he was still going to school, and I wasn’t certified to teach there. And so I got a job being a paraprofessional in a special ed classroom for emotionally disturbed and behavior disordered kids. And I fell in love with that population.
And so then I went and gotten and got a second master’s degree in special education and was a special education teacher in inner city Dallas. And I’m old, so it was I’m about to be 70. And so it was before they had elementary counselors.
So my children who I had children who had been in the state mental hospital, and I had children who had stabbed their previous teacher, et cetera. I had some kids who were pretty hardcore and they were getting no psychological services whatsoever. And what I knew was behavior mod.
And I was dissatisfied with behavior mod because I felt like it was teaching them to be externally motivated rather than internally motivated. And I wanted to learn something else. And so I started this is a really weird thing, probably, but I was in my twenty s and I love going to school.
So I started shopping for a PhD program that would teach me things that were different than what I’d learned already. And so I took classes in seven different programs and eventually stumbled onto counselor education at the University of North Texas, which I did not realize at the time because I didn’t know anything about play therapy. But it was like kind of at that point, like the capital of play therapy training because Gary Ledworth was so did you get to study with Gary directly? Was your original training with Gary? You may have to edit this out.
He tells me to tell people that, no, I didn’t actually take play therapy from him. I did a special topics with him after I’d already started developing Adlerian play Therapy. So it was weird circumstances.
I was in doctoral practicum and I was doing Adlerian with adult clients and very happy with it, and we had limited numbers of clients. And so one day the teacher came in and said, we have a new client. There’s some difficulty because the new client lives in a children’s home and somebody’s going to have to go get her and bring her back to the clinic and do counseling with her.
And at that point it was an unwritten rule that you weren’t allowed to work with a child if you hadn’t had Gary’s class. And at that point, he was the only person teaching play therapy. And by this time I had moved to a junior high, high school, special ed school.
So I was mainly focusing on working with adolescents at this point. And so that’s what I intended to be. But the teacher said, Terry, you have the most experience with younger children, so we’re going to have an advanced doctoral student watch every single one of your sessions, go home over the weekend and read everything that’s been written about play therapy.
And because this was a long time ago, there were limited books on play therapy, really. So I read Gary’s Art of the Relationship. I read Dibs and Search Yourself.
I read play Therapy by Axeline. I read windows to our children. I’m a fast reader.
And I read a book by Haim Ganat on group play therapy. And I read a book by Mustakis on what he called existential play therapy. At that point, it wasn’t in the card catalog that therapy was a thing.
The therapy by Injerinberg had been written, but I did not discover it until later. So all of the things I read were very non directive, generally speaking, child centered. And because Gary is the guru of, in the United States at least, child centered play therapy, that was the expectation I was going to bridge us because I’m hearing you paint this beautiful picture of many worlds colliding right like many different ideas, many different influences.
You were studying edlerian and loving it with your adults. So take us now into the world of Ed Lyrian play therapy. Help us understand a little bit about what it is, how it came into your thinking.
Take us there. Well, Adlerian psychology was developed by Alfred Adler, who was a contemporary of Freud. He gets taught as somebody who was Freud’s acolyte.
You can tell I was so but Adlerians believe that’s not what happened. Adler was the first editor of the Psychodynamic Journal and was very unhappy with many of the things that Freud said because he believed that psychopathology was more based on people being discouraged and people striving for perfection and not being able to achieve perfection and being stuck in their kind of feelings of not being enough and then beginning to feel that they were inferior. And then that was discouraging.
So that was part of what he believed. He also believed that paying attention to people’s families was really important. So he talked about the fact that you can’t understand a client, whether it’s an adult or a child.
And he did not work with children, but he worked with families some that you can’t understand somebody without understanding social context. And so part of what he talked a lot about is what we call family atmosphere, which is kind of the general affect of tone of the family and how it’s impacting everybody in the family, but especially children. He talked about birth order being really important.
That’s the things he’s kind of famous for, if you will, are feelings of inferiority and the superiority inferiority complexes. And then he’s famous for the birth order kinds of things. And so he talked about psychological birth order rather than actual birth order.
And that was very appealing to me. He talked about how the counselor’s job is to give people an experience that’s different than the experience they have with other people. And to when people are acting as if their feelings of inferiority are true and their negative interpretations of things connected to self, the world and others are true, they are acting as if those things are true.
And he said what the therapist’s job is is to give them experience in which they can’t reprove what they already believe about themselves, the world and others. And I love that idea that was super appealing to me. I love the idea that I didn’t have to focus on at the point that I was going through the program, there was a whole lot of emphasis on psychopathology, and I didn’t have to focus on psychopathology.
Adlerians believed that Adler was the first of a lot of things, so that he was the first holistic therapist, he was the first family therapist, he was the first positive psychologist, et cetera. But we whine about this a lot. We don’t get credit for it, but all of those things really are true.
If you look at what he wrote, and you look at the time in which he wrote it, and then you look at as psychology has evolved and the other kind of branches of psychology, there are strands from things that Adler said. At one point, Albert Ellis said every modern approach to psychology with adults was originating in Adler’s work, but that he was the only one who was giving Adler credit for that. And so Adler did get pretty whiny about so you were clearly inspired by his work, and it felt really meaningful for you.
So what does it look like in the translation from a play therapy perspective? In a play therapy perspective. So traditionally, before I developed Edley and play therapy, edleyans mainly worked with children only in the context of families. They did not work with children individually, and they made the assumption that children could talk about their problems just like grown ups could or teens could.
And I thought my experience in doing things with children at that point for like, half my life, that kids did communicate through play. They did communicate through what Scott Riviera calls mechanical communication, what they do. And that felt super important to me.
I’m the oldest of five kids, and my mom had a lot of mental health issues, and so I helped raise my brothers and my sister, basically. And so saw them when they were little, when they couldn’t articulate what was going on with them, but they could show me when they played. So I started paying attention to that when I was pretty young.
And so I thought if I could meld the two, if I could meld thinking about children in Adlerian ways, but use play to communicate with them, that that would be an avenue for using children’s kind of way. They just naturally communicate. Capitalizing on that.
Adler said that at one point. He said, play is not a trivial pursuit, it’s the work of the child. And that was like, he didn’t work with kids and said that.
And so part of what I wanted to do was integrate the two. But I needed to not child center, didn’t fit my personality and didn’t fit what I believe about people. To be child centered, you have to believe that the three core conditions empathic, understanding, genuineness, and unconditional positive regard are necessary and sufficient.
And for me, I don’t believe for many children they’re sufficient. I believe they’re necessary, but I don’t believe they’re sufficient. So I needed to figure out a way to be myself in the playroom and not be an imitation of someone else, because I felt like I was not being genuine when I was trying to be child centered.
And this little girl that I worked with gave me some pretty significant feedback when she said to me, how come you’re not yourself in that room with the toys and you’re yourself in the car and in the hallway? It’s like, okay, I got to figure this out. So I got to figure out how to take the strands of Adlerian and figure out a way to use them in the playroom. So in Adlerian Play Therapy, do you have what you would list out as the core piece, like core tenets or core philosophy, like you just said with child centered? Are there certain pieces that adlarian play therapists orient back to or come back to? The primary one is encouragement.
Encouragement, encouragement, encouragement. And there are four phases in Adlerian psychology, which are the same four phases that I’ve just applied in Adlerian Play therapy. And so in some ways the tenants are relationship is super important, super important.
But from an Ed learning perspective, it is not enough for many clients to move forward that they need to have us understand what’s going on with them, both their interpersonal dynamics and their intrapersonal dynamics. So we need to explore that. So that would be another kind of tenant exploring what Edlerin’s call lifestyle, which is like how they see themselves, how they see other people, how they see the world, and how they act as if those things are true.
So exploring that and that’s the second phase. And so the third phase is helping them gain insight. And that’s a little tricky, I think, in the play therapy world, because we make a lot more guesses about what’s going on with the dynamics.
So with the interpersonal dynamics, the intrapersonal dynamics, we make a lot of guesses about that and we try to do it on a developmental level. But one of the things we know about children is that generally speaking, their ability to understand things comes more quickly with most children than their ability to articulate it. Because their receptive vocabulary, their receptive ability to understand something quite frequently develops way more like way earlier than their expressive abilities.
And so we make a lot of guesses. So it would be basically relationship, explore insight, help gate insight. And then the fourth kind of thing is that we need to teach skills.
And so that would be the fourth phase, which is called reorientation reeducation. So it’s all about teaching anger management skills, teaching anxiety management skills, teaching friendship skills, et cetera, teaching communication skills, teaching problem solving skills, but using the play to do it and using stories. Adlerian Play Therapy is very big into stories in some ways.
Those are both the tenets and the phases, I guess. Yeah, I’m thinking of as if I was a listener and this was all new for me. And so my question from that perspective is so is Edgyrian always directive or are there other pieces where it’s not directive? That’s a question that a listener might have.
This is the trickiest one. So the answer is it’s both. And this is the art of Adlerian Play Therapy rather than the science of Adlerian Play therapy.
I have a lot of things that I could tell you. This is how you know this with the directive versus nondirective piece, it’s partly dependent on phase, it’s partly dependent on the presenting problem and the lifestyle of the client and it’s partly depending on the lifestyle of the therapist. The first phase is the least directive because we want to establish the relationship, at least the beginning of the relationship, given the fact that we are going to build a relationship the whole time.
But that initial building the relationship piece is nondirective for the most part. But we say to the kid the first session or two, I say this to children both the first session and the second session. Sometimes in here you get to be the boss and sometimes I get to be the boss, or sometimes we’ll do things that you want to do and sometimes we’ll do things that I want to do.
So I establish that from the very beginning. And then the second phase is about probably 50 50. A lot of times you can explore the dynamics without being directive because the kids are going to show you who they are just by the way they interact with you, by the way you see them interacting with their siblings.
I volunteer one day a week at a school and so the way I see kids in the hallway, the way I see kids in their classroom, et cetera, tells me a huge amount about the child and they’re both intrapersonal dynamics and interpersonal dynamics. And I will ask them to do some things. When we are directive.
In Edlium Play Therapy, we try to custom design that, which means if we’ve got a child who likes to do art, we’ll do art. If we’ve got a child who likes to do puppet shows, we’ll do puppet shows. We’ve got a child who likes to play basketball games, we’ll ask them to do some things in the context of basketball, et cetera.
So we custom design it based on what their interests are and based on how they best like to express themselves. It’s so beautiful you’re saying that because as you keep talking, you haven’t said this word yet, but I keep hearing the word authenticity as you’re talking. It just feels like it’s part of what you’re saying.
So correct me if I’m wrong, that there’s a piece of just the authenticity of the clinician and the authenticity of the client and that that’s also part of the dance. Yes, I think it’s authenticity and it’s respect because I want to be respectful to the client. And what that means when you’re playing with a kid is if I’ve got a kid who’s interested in video games and say it’s a kid who’s playing Fortnite, or say the kid is really excited about Overwatch two, then I go online and watch people on Twitch doing Overwatch Two so I can know what the dynamics of that game are, et cetera.
And that to me, is both authenticity because I get super excited about it because they’re excited about it, but also respect. Because if I am knocking on the door and saying, can I come into your world, then I need to be respectful about their world. The other, I guess, word that I would say is a word that I would describe adley and play therapy is intentional.
We are very intentional with what we do and that I work really hard to teach people to be intentional. So the third phase quite frequently is I’m going to finish answering that other question since I lost it at one point. The third phase is it depends on how you define directive.
But it’s very interpretive, so it’s very making guesses. We would call that meta communication, which is communication about the communication and communication about what we think is the underneath of what’s going on. So we would make a lot of guesses about that.
Adlerians call those tentative hypotheses, and we call them spitting in the client’s soup kind of a gross phrase. One of the things adverse said is if you go to a restaurant and you look over and you see the waiter spitting in the bowl of soup that’s intended for your table, you would be less likely to want to eat it than you would if he hadn’t spat in the soup. And so we will compassionately, gently lovingly point out things that the child is doing that get in their own way.
So if I have a child who is having difficulty making friends and really wants friends, and I see that if he doesn’t get his way playing on the playground or whatever, that he leaves in a huff, then I’m going to point out, if you want to make friends, you might have to be willing to play what other people want to play. Sometimes. Things like that.
And we do a lot of storytelling and we co tell stories, but we also design therapeutic metaphors for children who are metaphor children. And that’s, from the perspective of the book by Lori Yasnak and Ken Gardner, the dimensions model of play therapy, that would be considered to be directive, even though we’re not saying to the kid, I’d like you to draw a picture, or would you be willing to do a puppet show? Or whatever, that still, by their definition at least, is directive, as in, I’m saying to the kid, hey, I made a book for you this weekend and I’d like to read it to you. Or I have a little puppet show I want to do for you.
Would you be willing to sit and be my audience? So those are also directive. And then in the third phase, the fourth phase is the most directive because that’s the teaching phase, the teaching and practicing phase. So I might say to a kid, let’s pretend that I am a person who wants to be that, that you would like me to be your friend and I’m on the playground.
So what would you say if you came over? So we do a lot of role playing kinds of things. I do a lot of board game things to work on social skills, to work on taking turns, to work on frustration tolerance, to work on being able to tolerate not always winning or not always getting your way. I do a lot of things with that.
I do a lot of, again, storytelling for the child that’s designed to teach. And so that’s the most directive phase. People who like an answer to things, like one right answer, Adlerian Play therapy sometimes drives them nuts, because our answer all of the teachers who teach for us, the Lept teachers and myself, the answer in many cases is, it depends.
It depends. Now we’re going to tell you what it depends on. So I’m going to say it depends on how the kids week has gone this week.
It depends on how the family deals with conflict. So I know what it depends on. But sometimes that’s super frustrating for people who want, here’s the way you do this.
And you do this with every single child, because we never do anything with every single child. So I took a class on Friday on Superheroes from Sophia. I’m sorry.
And it was a great class, and I learned some really cool techniques, but I’m going to go to my school where I volunteered tomorrow. I’m not going to do all those techniques with all the kids that I work with because they’re not appropriate for all the kids that I work with. I might do one of the techniques with one of those kids because it would be appropriate with him.
So I think that’s an important thing to to know about Adlerian Play therapy is that we are constantly thinking about what I call the big A agenda. And the small a agenda. The big A agenda is, where are we going with this client? So what are our big objectives? And then our small A agenda is a plan for the session.
And one of the things I teach my students is never get attached to the small A agenda because you go in and you had this brilliant, beautiful story that you crafted for this child, and then they got in a fight on the playground. And the story is not about getting a fight on the playground or conflict management. The story is about self esteem.
And then I think, okay, that’s not going to work today. It’s really not going to work today. And so in that case, say it’s a fourth phase.
Like, we’re in fourth phase. I’m going to go back to first phase. I’m going to go back to, okay, you just need support here.
You just need encouragement here. You’re feeling really frustrated, and you didn’t use any of those skills that you learned that you usually use. And today was just a really rough day.
And so one of the things. That it’s hard to teach in some ways when you’ve got phases, because our phases are not discreet. They overlap.
They segue into one another every once in a while in a first session. I started with a new kid last week, and I thought, this kid thinks he’s too weird for people to like him. And so I said, A lot of people think I’m pretty weird and I have a lot of friends.
I did not say this. And you have that same issue. I just kind of threw it in there, which would be a fourth phase metaphoric intervention.
And it was the first time I met the kid, but I wanted to plant that seed and it came up. Yeah. You’re describing such a beautiful way for therapists to attune at a much larger, much larger level.
Not just attune in the moment, but attune in the entire treatment process. Meta attune. Is that a word? I don’t know.
Right? I don’t know, but it’s kind of like that. I’m just hearing this multiple on multiple levels and multiple scales. It’s really quite beautiful the way you’re describing it super cool.
When I read the mindful play Therapist by Dan Siegel, the first time, I was so, like, attunement and resonance. Attunement and resonance. That’s what we do.
And so I made all of the teachers that work for Lemp read the book. Read that book, because I’m like, okay, so this is what we’re doing. They were like, oh, yeah, we get it.
Yeah, the left brain language, right? For this intuitive process. Yes. So I have another question that I want to ask, but before that, for the individuals that are curious about your work and about where they can do some trainings, can we just drop in? What’s the website? Where can they go? So there are two websites.
This is a little complicated. There’s an informational website, which is WW, however many W’s it is. Adlerianplaytherapy.com
that’s the website that describes the certification program. It describes what Edlerian play therapy is basically. It’s also got a link for financial aid because Rick and I fund financial aid for people who are interested in learning.
Adlerian play therapy. One of the things we decided a couple of years ago is that our child did not need to inherit a lump sum of money because he’s not the most fiscally responsible person in the world. He would tell you this.
What we decided we wanted to do with our money is we wanted to support people who wanted to learn enduring Plant Therapy but couldn’t afford it. And that’s a super big deal to us. So there’s information on that website, www and learningoplantherapy.com.
And then there’s another website, which is the website for the registration. And it’s got a list of all the classes and things. And that is what is it, Terry? Do you love that with http lept L-E-A-P-T which stands for and it’s all lowercase.
It stands for the League of Extraordinary and Lyrian PlayTherapists Arlo. Arlo is the registration system we use. Great.
Beautiful. Well, my last question as we’re wrapping up this discussion, because you’ve really seen the growth of our field and have seen how things have evolved, what advice would you give to therapists that are I don’t even just want to say starting out, but just like, at this point, with everything that you’ve seen right. And you sense where growth is and where things are stuck and all of that, this is what I want to say to play therapist right now with your understanding.
I think it’s really important to have a theoretical orientation. There’s a trend kind of for prescriptive or integrative play therapy. This is kind of an editorial comment, I guess, and sometimes that feels like throwing spaghetti at the wall a little.
This little, that little, this little, right? But without any systematic way to conceptualize the client, I think it’s super important to be intentional and to be consciously planful about what you’re doing with your clients. And I think in order to do that, you need to have a systematic way to conceptualize. And that systematic way to conceptualize needs to be based on your philosophical beliefs about how people get the way they are and how people change.
And so I think people need to be discerning when they’re thinking about getting trained as play therapists and look at what does this particular approach, what’s it based on, what are the beliefs in this particular approach to play therapy? So if I were a new play therapist, I would be looking at what does Lisa say about synergistic play therapy and how it helps people change? What does Gestalt play therapy say about how people get the way they are and how people change? And where is the congruence between what I believe about how people get the way they are and how they change and this particular approach to play therapy? Totally. I just think that’s super important. And for a while, I was doing a lot, a lot, a lot of play therapy supervision.
I’m semi retired now, so I actually am not anymore. I have people in left that do that now. But I would get people saying to me, oh, would you do supervision with me? Because I’ve taken all these classes at the apt conference, and I know a whole lot of techniques, and I don’t really know what I’m doing.
And I loved that they recognized that. Even if you don’t want to choose a theory, or even if you want to meld two different theories that are compatible philosophically, I still think you need to have a systematic way of conceptualizing. So if you’re making up the way you do play therapy, have a consistent way to think about kids and think about families and think about how people change.
Like, we don’t work with a kid. If we can’t get some buy in from some adult in the kid’s life. That’s one of our basic things in Adlerian play therapy.
But if you don’t think that’s important, then Adlerian Play therapy wouldn’t be a good match for you. There are a lot of approaches to play therapy that don’t think that’s important. Choose one of them.
Yeah. I so love what you’re saying. There’s so much permission in what you’re saying for play therapists to go find yourself.
Go find yourself in a theory. But I think I know. In my journey, I just learned what I was exposed to in whatever classes I took at the time.
And it took me going out on my own outside of what I was just naturally exposed to, to look at what is this and what is this and what is this and what is this? And I think what you’re saying is so perfectly necessary for a therapist to go discover who they are, but get grounded in something. Choose something that’s you and get grounded in it. Yeah.
That feels like the most important thing. Truthfully, a lot of people are super focused on technique and not particularly focused on why are we doing this? Yeah, I think you ought to know. Why are you doing stuff why are you doing stuff with this particular yeah.
Yeah. Well, Terry, this has been just a wonderful conversation. I’m so grateful for your time, and I feel inspired talking to you.
I know our listeners are jazzed listening to you and knowing a bit more about you as well. Thank you for what you have done in the field, what you continue to do in the field. I said at the beginning that you’re a big deal, and you were humble enough to say, Well, I don’t know about that.
But, Terry, you are a big deal. And I just want to say thank you, really, truly, thank you for being who you are in the field for so thank Terry and her work and Ed Larian, Play Therapy. And as always, wherever you are in the world, I invite you to take a moment, take a breath, reflect, remind yourself that you’re the most important toy in the playroom, and your well being matters a lot. So take care of yourself, and until next time.
