Thank you so much for joining me again for this next episode from the Lessons from the Playroom podcast. I have with me an incredibly important person in my life as our special guest today. Dewey Freeman was probably the most instrumental teacher that I have had in my career as a counselor.
He was one of my teachers that I met when I was in graduate school and then continued learning with him at the Gestalt Institute of the Rockies. I’m going to say a little bit more about him here before I welcome him. He is joining me today, everyone, to talk about attachment and working with attachment through the lens of working with Equine Assisted Therapy.
Now listeners, as I say that if you’re like, I don’t work with horses. I want you to listen to this podcast because you will learn something about attachment, even if the idea of working therapeutically with horses is a new concept to you. So let me share a little bit about Dewey before we say a hello.
He is a sought after teacher, trainer, licensed therapist, and Equine professional around the world. He does teach worldwide and has developed a practical attachment theory and human development theory that is taught to thousands of university students. He’s co founded both the Gestalt Equine Institute and the Gestalt Institute of the Rockies.
He provides supervision to therapists and graduate students, does business and land consultations for new Equine therapy sites and models. Being a lifelong student himself, gustal and relational horsemanship are not just approaches to Dewey. They are how he walks through the world.
And listeners, you are going to hear and feel Dewey on this podcast. I guarantee. He is an incredible teacher.
He is a true elder and mentor and is exploring new horizons and not only facilitating men’s growth and men’s work, but also Dewey, I know that your work goes so far beyond that to your love for developing the therapist is pretty profound. And I know we’ll talk about this at the end of the podcast, but you are really interested right now in taking therapists skill level not just to a four or five, but all the way on up there to a ten and really helping develop the clinician. So dewey, welcome to this podcast.
Well, thank you. You bring tears to my eyes. I’m incredibly touched, and I just hope that I can live up to the introduction you just gave me.
It’s like, okay, who is this guy that you’re talking about? So thank you so much, and please know I hold you an incredibly high esteem. And when I have students that have gone out into the world and done the kinds of things that you have done, I could not be more both satisfied and proud. So thank you so very much.
Well, thank you Dewey, and thank you for having me today. Yeah, I’ve wanted to have this conversation with you, and I’m so glad that you’re here and we’re able to do this and talk about such an important and foundational and fundamental topic to just being humans on this planet and being of service to one another. So attachment, the attachment cycle, equine, assisted therapy.
Where do you want to begin in that conversation? Well, we can probably cover this in three or four minutes. Right? So actually, let me begin by sharing a bit of a story. Okay.
I’m in my twenty s, and I’m basically a mess and had no clue what to do with my life or how to do it. I went through a lot of different processes, and my experience of life was basically walking around with this big sort of hole inside of me. Through a series of events, I became connected with a guy named Foster Klein, who did a whole lot of really early attachment work.
Many people will know him. Also Foster Klein and Jim Fey in working with parenting, with love and logic. And Foster became actually my first supervisor, my first clinical supervisor.
So through that process and looking at attachment and talking to a very good friend of mine who is adopted, and she was sharing her experience of adoption, and there was this epiphany that happened inside me of like, oh, I have the same process going on. And that process was like feeling like I had nothing to grab hold of in the world. And in looking back, I began going, oh, I get it.
And here’s what I got. At four months into my mother’s pregnancy with me, she was diagnosed with tuberculosis. She carried me to term.
I was born whisked away and did not see her for 18 months. I grew up with various aunts and uncles and primarily my grandfather, whom I have changed my name to be named after. And at 18 months, I moved back in with her.
And there’s actually an article in the newspaper, local newspapers basically, with a quote of, well, when he moved back in, when Dewey moved back in with me, he was like a neighbor kid moving in. And that began my journey of on two levels. One is like, working with my own attachment issues, which finally it was like, oh, I have a name.
I have a concept to work with here, and two, trying to figure out just how to work with other people with this. So that’s where I began, with this. So most of what I have tried to put together is something that is incredibly practical and incredibly useful, because there are a lot of theories out there about attachment and that are valid, many of them both from an attachment perspective and also developmental perspective.
Many of the theories that are out there are not that usable. They’re valid, and it’s like, how do we take those theories and turn them into something that’s really usable clinically when we’re working with people? So that’s sort of the beginning. What I thought I might share today is some of my ideas around attachment, what I put together as far as what I call the Freeman attachment cycle, and then talk about how I work with that with horses.
And let me just throw out a couple of things here before we jump into that. One of the things, obviously, that you’re very well known for is synergetic play therapy. What I know of what you do is pretty similar to what I do with horses.
It’s sort of like the arena is sort of my play therapy room, so to speak. So you did mention, like, yeah, maybe I’m not going to be working with horses if I’m a clinician. I may do this, I may not do that.
But what I’m talking about is incredibly similar, and it just tends to be with people who aren’t little kids, but it’s incredibly similar. So as we’re going on, I’ll try and weave that in. Does that make sense? Totally.
And I’m smiling because well, gestalt is one of the root theories of synergetic play therapy. And as you’re talking about it’s, like, of course it’s similar. You were one of my teachers.
Well, it’s just a bigger sandbox. Yeah. So to speak.
Um, let me are you open to beginning? Just just can we just show the attachment cycle and let me talk about that a little bit? Absolutely. And also, actually, before we do that, let me throw in a piece here. I’m guessing that many people that will be watching this have seen and worked with you.
And I know that a part of that is that you have integrated part of my developmental model into your work, which I’m incredibly honored for you to be doing. I feel incredibly touched. Part of what I believe happens is that in utero, we’re coming into a process of existence.
And that coming into that. I call that stage coming into existence. I don’t think that we’re quite at a place where we’re asking a question about it, because it’s primarily a somatic process.
And then at some point, obviously, we’re born, and then we begin the stage of what I call is the world. Okay. And clearly, right after we’re born, we’re not asking a question.
We’re not laying in our crib at two weeks going is the world. Okay. But the piece, I think that ties those two stages together, the pre birth and then birth is the attachment cycle and our attachment process, because I believe that really begins in utero and most of the process that super early attachment is a somatic process.
Many times in gestalt we talk about interjects, which just briefly, an interject is a message that we take in without we just take it in. Because we take it in, it could be interjects can be really positive, they can be neutral and they can be not so positive. So just to put that out, what I’ve sort of come to and what I’ve really began looking at over the last number of years are the somatic interjects.
Most people don’t talk about somatic interjects and I don’t know if you do or not in your work, but we get some of those somatic interjects way early on. And I don’t know exactly when it might be two months into pregnancy, it might be four months into pregnancy, I don’t know. But clearly the research around epigenetics and how all of that works I do think supports that notion that we take in information and we begin to attach in Euro.
Does that make sense to you or thoughts on that? Totally. Do you want to just jump into the attachment cycle and then let’s start putting that together for people? Beautiful. So, listeners, if you’re listening, you’re not watching this video.
I’m going to hold up an image of the attachment cycle, but Dewey’s also going to be explaining it so that you can understand it as we’re talking about it. Since you don’t have access to a Dewey, are you able to see that? Yeah. Yeah, I am.
And just for people seeing, it needs to come up to your left a little bit. There we go. Perfect.
And maybe people can just see that and then we can put it down and speak about it. Okay, there it is. There it is.
So thank you very much and I’m happy if you want to put that on your website or if people want to look at my website so that they can actually go see it, which is Deweyfreeman.com correct. Org.
Okay, Deweyfreeman.org. Great. Thank you.
In utero, we need and before I start this, I know that I’m trying to keep this simple for the time that we have. So I know that there’s more than three things that we need, and these are the three primary things I believe we need. We need food, which is coming through the umbilical cord.
We need touch, which we’re always being touched, and we need movement, which we’re always being moved with whether a mother is walking, whether she’s sitting and breathing, whether she’s laying down, whether she’s rolling over. We’re always being touched and moved and fed later in life. We still need food, touch and movement.
So we go out to lunch with somebody, and then we take a walk and we we make contact with people. And in a little bit, I’ll talk about contact. So food remains food, but it also becomes nurturing so we can be nurtured.
And when we get nurtured very well, we feel fed, we feel full. Touch expands into the whole concept of contact. Even like Lisa and I are probably 30 miles apart.
I’m assuming you’re somewhere in Boulder. I don’t know your exact address, but we can make contact with each other here. So touch is contact, and movement is movement, as well as what I call emotion.
Emotion is the energetic energy moving through our bodies. And when energy moves through our bodies, we label that emotion. So those are the three primary things that we are looking for from our mothers in utero and also after birth.
Not just mothers, but caretakers, fathers, other caretakers. Some people grow up in extended families, et cetera, et cetera. When we need those three things, we ask for those three things by wiggling, by crying, by being cute, by slobbering all over ourselves, by messing our diapers and all of those things.
When the caretaker is attuned to us, what they do is that they try to meet those needs. They pick us up, they change our diapers, they coup, they rock us, they feed us. And here’s the important part with that.
When we’re getting food, touch and movement from our caretakers, and I’m saying caretakers, I primarily mean mothers at this stage, and there are more caretakers than mothers, but primarily mothers when we do that. And our caretakers are making contact with us and providing food, touch and movement in contact and relationship, that’s what is the beginning of the attachment process. So we get food, touch, and movement in contact and relationship.
Our world is okay. And we go and that cycle goes around and around. And in the did a research piece of that, we go through that cycle about between ten and 15 times an hour.
Wow. Yeah. A lot of patterning.
Good or bad, right? Good or bad. Exactly. And the cycle can be as much as a baby can be laying next to us and goes and we reach over and touch him or her and rock them slightly, and they go that’s a whole cycle.
Sometimes, like, for instance, when the baby is teething or has an upset stomach or that cycle lasts a lot longer. So sometimes the cycle is a couple of seconds long, and sometimes it’s a couple of hours long. But that’s the whole process.
I want to say a couple of quick things here. What really is happening on a sort of mega level or meta level, whichever is the right word, is that we are going through a tough time baby’s going through a tough time in contact, in relationship, and coming out okay. And that is becoming predictable.
So I want to say that again, when we go through a hard time in contact, in relationship and come out okay, that creates trust. Trust, then is the core of all the attachment that we have going on. Does that make and in all honesty, Lisa and I have never gone through a really tough time with each other.
We’ve always worked well together. But it’s like even that knowing that I can go through a tough time with somebody and come out okay is the core of trust, is the core of attachment. I hope that that makes sense to people in the process of an infant asking for food, touch and movement.
And this is also, I believe, happens in utero, but in the process of an infant asking for food, touch or movement through crying, wiggling, smiling, all of those things, they can be provided food, touch, and movement. But if it’s not provided in contact and relationship, then what happens is that the infant attaches to the food, touch, and movement itself, not the person that’s providing it. And that’s a pretty big deal.
And that, in my view, is the actual core of what we would call addiction, because we’re attaching to the food, touch, and movement versus attaching to the person who’s providing food, touch and movement. So when we get into issues around eating when we get into issues around moving when we get into issues around not being able to make contact when we get into issues around like some of the sexual addictions or the porn addictions. When we get into those kind of processes, the work is to be able to move from the attachment to the food, touch and movement itself to the environment that’s providing or the person that’s providing the food, touch and movement.
Dewey, I want to name something for our listeners, since our listeners work with young kids. Listeners, what Dewey just said is really important. It’s not something that I hear talked about linked back.
You articulate this so clearly in such a way that makes sense at this stage of development. And listeners, we see signs of this already with our two year old, three year olds, four year olds, five year old, six year old, seven year olds. So just keep this piece that Dewey’s talking about in mind as a place of curiosity.
When you’ve got kids coming to you that are already starting to struggle with food issues, that are already starting to struggle with high levels of masturbation, those kinds of things, just keep this as a place of absolutely. And one of the things that you said as Lisa and I were preparing to do this, we had a number of email exchanges, and one of the things that Lisa sent was just some of her ideas around some of the developmental stuff. And what struck me in one of your emails is that you made a statement, and I’ll get as close as I can to what you said that primarily we’re working with the first three stages coming into existence.
Is the world okay and am I okay? Well, here’s the interesting part, and I want to weave this in, is I believe that’s the case whether we’re working with a child who is, say, three years old or whether we’re working with a person who’s 50 years old. And I want to say that again, because when people come into therapy, they’re working with their existence. Is the world okay? Can I trust the world? And then am I okay? Which is really about, can I trust myself? So it doesn’t matter our age if our existence is good, if we’re going, yeah, I’m here, I’m good if I trust the world and if I trust myself, I don’t need to be in therapy very much.
I might come into therapy if I have a major loss or something like that. But most of the people that I see in therapy are people who have some major attachment kinds of things, regardless of their age. So to me, it’s a pretty big deal.
It’s a huge deal. Let me throw in one other piece here, because what my guess is, is that most people are dealing with trauma and work very hard to be trauma informed. My perspective is that the process of trauma and working with trauma also the process of working with very intense grief, is the same process of going as we go through those same stages.
If I’ve had trauma and I’ll just speak on a personal level, a number of years ago, one of my brothers died of cancer, and his name is John. And it was like, what’s my existence like with John? Not in the world. Is the world okay without John? Am I okay without John? How much can I do and how well can I do it, and who am I without John? The same way, just literally two weekends ago, I was working with a 53 year old man who is a veteran of the Marines and the CIA and has experienced just horrible, horrible trauma.
And it’s like he literally was going, I don’t know if the world’s okay. I don’t know if it’s okay to exist. And those are words that were coming out of his mouth.
I was not feeding him those words. And just so that people know, the whole attachment piece and the whole piece around the developmental stuff, the way that I developed that was listening to people. All I did was listen to what people were saying.
And when I was hearing what they were saying and could trace back where they were having impasses in their life, they began matching up. So if people are saying, I don’t trust anybody in the world, usually they had impasse or some sort of trauma in the first either in utero or the first year and a half of life, those kinds of things. So all I did was sort of work backwards, and I just listened to people to figure out what they were saying and how they were saying it.
Yeah. Does that make sense? Totally, as you’re sharing. So my mom passed away three years ago, and I went right back through the stages.
Also, who am I without a mom on the planet? What’s my identity? What’s my existence? I had to go back and remind myself of the different questions and how I oriented to the world, how I oriented to myself, how I oriented. I had to revisit every one of them in my healing. Me, I want to throw one more piece in and then maybe I’ll start talking about horses a little bit.
Perfect. And actually, I just heard one of them winnie up the hill. I’ve been going through this process with Steve Porges, which do you know who he is? I’m actually trying to meet with him.
So when I say with him, I’ve not met him. I’m just his material. What I’m actually looking at from this perspective is looking at all of the stages of development and all of my work now from trying to be polyvagal informed versus trying to be trauma informed, I’m switching that.
And the reason I am is because polyvagal is a bigger umbrella. So we can work with that. Certainly from a polyvagal perspective, I do think it’s the guide to work with trauma.
But in all of the evidence based stuff that has come out like a decade ago or 15 years ago, all of that was behaviorally based. What I’m seeing is that the polyvagal is the evidence behind the relationally based work that we do. And it’s mind blowing to me the way that it’s being put together.
So that’s a piece that I’m messing with here. As I’m going through sort of my later years of working therapeutically with people, I just wanted to throw that piece in because it’s been pretty up. Beautiful.
Before we move into horses and maybe this is where you’re about to go. I know there’s one other piece of the attachment cycle just to finish the discussion on it, which is what happens when the need is not met and then the child then goes into rage or shutdown. Do you want to speak to that just to finish that? Yeah, let me talk about that really quick.
And I was debating whether I should go into that just time wise. So thank you for bringing that up. If you could imagine the cycle coming down and we’re needing food, touch and movement, and we’re not getting it.
As an infant, we only have two choices. We can either shut down or we can rage. Four month old can’t jump out of the crib and sort of toodle over the fridge and get a bottle out, heat it up, go back to the crib.
They just can’t do that. So a lot of times with all of the messaging, for instance, around just let babies cry themselves to sleep or just let them cry it out, those kinds of things. Many times they cry it out, but they don’t cry it out and then settle.
They cry it out and they shut it down and shut down. So we tend to go back and forth between raging and shutting down later in life. Many times in relationships, one person will go to rage and one person will go to shut down and that doesn’t work so well in relationships.
Just saying. The other piece is that that process of raging and shutting down is the foundational process that creates abuse in relationships. And years and years ago, I was very involved in working with domestic violence and it was like why in God’s name is somebody getting beat up because they burnt toast? Well, it’s because it’s an attachment issue, not a burnt toast issue.
And it’s part of what creates if a person is perpetrating in a relationship, it’s an attachment issue. If a person is going back and being perpetrated against repeatedly, it’s because people go back up to in general on average eight times, which is both people are working with attachment issues and it’s from that place of not having needs met and only knowing how to shut down a rage. So thank you for bringing that up.
That’s a really big deal. That’s a big deal. And I know that we can see that either in the playroom with young kids, like over and over and over.
We can see that and I also see that with people with working with horses. So beautiful. Segue yeah, that worked out really well.
That worked out great. Way to go. Bring us into the world of equine assisted therapy and how you use horses to work with attachment.
Okay, so let me talk generally in regard to horses. Many people will know this and if you don’t, that’s fine. Horses in the wild are prey animals.
What that means is that they’re the beings who get eaten by lions and tigers and bears. Horses can defend themselves, but the main way they defend themselves is by running. When we have well, let me back up.
There’s actually two ways they defend themselves. One is by running, but two is by being in relationship with a herd of horses. That’s where safety comes, is in relationship.
So I’m going to guess that there are people in the audience that feel like they’re prey because they’ve gone through trauma and the way they defend themselves is by running in one way or another or leaving in one way or another. What’s interesting about working with horses is that if we go in and we’re not predatorial, they do not have to be prey. And so that’s a core piece that I work on because many times people who feel like they’re prey when they go in and they get scared, they either shut down or they become predatorial.
So we’re working with both of those things with horses when we’re looking at nervous systems. And now I’m going to dive in a little bit to heart math is that a horse’s nervous system is anywhere from five to eight times bigger than ours. Mostly because they’re 1200 pounds.
And like, I’m a pretty big person, I’m 200 pounds. So even they still have me by six or seven times. A horse’s heart rate, resting heart rate is 38 beats per minute.
So when a horse is grounded and a horse is solid, people will walk in and they’ll go, wow, just standing next to your horse, I just feel so calm. And people’s heart rate drops. It literally drops.
Well, when our heart rate is dropping, what do we call that? We call that cold regulation. So that’s one piece that I’m working with, the other piece, and I want to throw this in, I’m going to jump a little bit because I know that I could talk about this for hours and hours. There are two other primary things that I work with horses that purposely work with horses with, and this is primarily around attachment.
And when I say this next part, I’m saying it with a huge amount of respect and beauty. If you watch a woman who is pregnant walk away from you, and you watch how she walks, and you watch a horse walk away from you, and you watch how a horse walks, their walk is identical. Their walk is absolutely identical.
A horse’s pelvis is exactly like a human pelvis, and it’s more exactly like a woman’s pelvis than it is a man’s pelvis. It tends to be a little bit wider. And when a horse walks, there’s the movement of them walking.
It’s literally like this. So when I’m working with somebody who has a who’s struggling with attachment, and we’re going back to the whole piece of food, touch and movement, and going back, literally to Utero, putting a person on a horse and having them be moved by a horse is the closest I know how to get to replicating the movement that we experience in Utero. I remember the first time I heard it, heard you teach this and I got emotional and I’m hearing you say it again and I’m getting emotional again.
There’s just something so beautiful about the idea of it, the image of it, the connection in it. There’s just something really touching about that whole concept. And every time I talk about it, I get all Twitter painted inside.
I’m just going, wow, this is like so cool. And here’s the other piece is if I’m working with somebody who’s had trauma, who’s had attachment issues, I can put that person on horse and they can be held in the most kind and the most clean and the most supportive way possible. There isn’t any weird stuff going on.
I mean, obviously I can’t put someone on my lap and rock them. I would never do that. But that’s what somebody.
Needs. It’s just that I can’t do it. So the work that I’ve tried to do is and put together, it’s like, well, how can I do this? And I can’t tell you how many people I have sat on one of my horses and within seconds, just tears start coming.
I don’t know why I’m crying, but this is like, amazing. And it is it’s not all. So I don’t want to minimize it, but it’s simply simply what it is is being held in a way that we need to be held with another being that is strong enough to hold us and is kind enough to hold us and is strong enough to move us and is kind enough to move us in the way that we need to be held and moved and nurtured.
So just whomever is listening to this, just allow yourself to imagine that. Imagine sitting or even sometimes laying and being held and moved the way that you need to be held and moved. It’s the exact same thing we do with our babies.
The exact same thing we do. Yeah, super powerful. And it can be incredibly clean.
It can be incredibly powerful. And we can do it over and over and over and over, even to the point through confessions. When I’m finding myself being put uprated, what do you think I go do? I go get on one of my horses.
And it’s like, okay, thank you. Thank you so much. So the other piece that I’ve been building into all of that is all the nature based stuff.
And that’s a piece that Kimberly has brought in with her Ecotherapy Institute. And the work that we’re doing together is it’s nature, horses and land. And so we’re combining and putting those things together.
And so not only are we being held, not only are we being moved, we’re also being allowed to down regulate without trying. Because that’s one of the biggest pieces when we’re really struggling is it’s like when we try to down regulate, we don’t, we can’t because we’re trying. It’s like, okay, I’m going to do okay.
And because that’s not what down regulation is. Down regulation is literally down regulating from the inside out, from the bottom up, not from the top down. And that’s the other piece.
So what happens when we’re on a horse and a horse is moving and rocking us? Our pelvis, which in my world, when we’re looking at somatic work, is the pelvis is sort of the Grand Central Station of energy. And if you talk to anyone who does a lot of somatic work, if you talk or yoga, all of those sort of perspectives, it’s like people are talking about first chakra and second chakra and the movement. Well, when a horse is walking and they’re moving their pelvis, they’re also moving ours.
So it’s beginning to loosen that energy up that can actually go down through our legs and allow us to be grounded or to come up from the ground through our pelvic floor and through our heart and into our brain and into the rest of our body. So it’s literally, in many ways, a fast track, so to speak, to getting to the somatic processes that we need to get to and that we want to get to that are natural to us and that we began in utero and progressed and somewhere along the line we got tripped up or just through life events and life circumstances. We have reached an impasse.
Yeah, most of those impasses I do want to say this piece too, is most of those impasses, at least in my experience with people, when people think about attachment stuff, many times they think about abuse. In my case, that wasn’t the case. I wasn’t abused.
And many, many of the people that I work with were not abused. Most of it. We had parents who didn’t know how to attach, we had circumstances, we had illness, we had cultural invasion, we had financial issues.
We had all of those kinds of things that have created impasses and created some of that early stuff. And when we get the chance to redo that and come out in a different way, that’s the goal of working from a model of working with attachment. So, beautiful.
As you were talking, and you were talking about the polybagal theory, I just kept hearing the co regulation with the horse is allowing the individual and the horse to be able to access ventral for their own healing in a way that’s safe, in a way that’s non invasive, non intrusive, non threatening. Really lovely. Yeah.
Thank you. And it’s our built in social engagement system, because here’s what’s interesting. Horses have that, too.
And that core Neuroceptive social engagement system is not a process that goes through our brain, it’s a process that goes through our body. And that’s what horses bring us that I find hard to get anywhere else. Beautiful.
So as we start to find a wrap up point here, before I share with our listeners where they can learn more, because I guarantee there’s listeners that are curious about what you have just said and curious about learning more. Is there anything else that feels like oh, no, I really want to say that one more thing or a message that you want the listener? Yeah. Attachment is instinctive, and attachment is intuitive.
One of the ways that we learn or get taught not well. One of the things that happens in particularly our society is our instinctual process. And our intuitive processes get poo pooed.
It’s like, here’s the research, and if you don’t have the research, it doesn’t mean anything if we don’t have the research. And so my message is, and this is actually where I’m going in a lot of my work, is, how do we bring instinct and intuition back into, one, all of our relationships, and two, all of our therapeutic relationships in my world. And the biggest compliment I have ever gotten from people is that people say, Dewey, you’re not any different when you’re sitting with me at a coffee shop talking.
And when you’re in the middle of therapy, you’re just not different. And I try to I don’t have a therapy head, okay? Now I’m a therapist. Now I’m a partner.
Now I’m a teacher. I don’t have that. I’ve been told I should, but I don’t.
And so allow yourself to bring instinct and intuition into your work and into your lives and into your relationships, regardless of what those relationships are. Beautiful. Thank you.
So we’ve already mentioned, deweyfreeman.org, are there other websites or other resources that you would love to share with our audience? Yeah, a lot of what I talked about with horses, I teach through the Gestalt Equine Institute of the Rockies. I also am involved with Kimberly Rose teaching through the Colorado Ecotherapy Institute, which she runs working a lot of we’re bringing all of the concepts of what I just spoke about with horses.
Those same concepts can be brought in through working with nature, which everybody can have access to that everybody, even if it’s the park next door. I’m also doing a lot of stuff with men through two different men’s groups man Talks and Man Non Civilized. They’re very different.
Both wonderful, very different. The man uncivilized is a bit more raw. Man Talks is a bit more comes in a little bit through Jungian work, which is one of the things that has hit me, is it’s like we can change a lot of things by helping men find a place to be grounded and find out who they are and work with their attachment issues.
Yeah, those are sort of the biggies, beautiful let me throw out one more thing. And I’m putting together and I’m trying to think of the dates. I think that’s April.
I am putting together a group of eight to ten therapists that I want to walk through a very intense I don’t even know the right Masterclass mastermind something. It’s a six month long program. Some it will be online, some will be in person of helping people go from a lot of therapists are out there that are five or a six.
I’ve sort of done a whole side step or thing in my life around working with the Keto and horsemanship. So if I’m talking about belts, like white belts, the lowest and a lot of people are in the middle of a blue belt or purple belt, it’s like, I want to help people get to a black belt, help people get up to an eight or a nine, and there’s just not resources out there to do that. So that’s one of my desires.
I want to jump in as you just said that. So listeners and Dewey, I shared with mean as a teacher in my world, you were the person that I learned how to become a therapist with, and I can say that wholeheartedly. So, listeners, if any of you want to work with a master and you want to go from a five or six to a nine or a ten, I would recommend that you reach out and get curious about what Dewey’s up to.
Just going to put a plug in there for that. Thank you so very much. And one of the things I’m not great at are websites and I’m working with this.
So if you go to Deweyfreeman.org, there’s some stuff on there. I just redid that whole website and it’s now published, but there’ll be information on there to contact me and it’s easy to get a hold of me.
Dewey Freeman at Gmail. It’s pretty straightforward, beautiful. Well, Dewey, thank you so much again.
We could have this conversation all day long and go in so many different directions and I appreciate you being here. I appreciate you sharing your wisdom. I appreciate you being you on this planet so much and just super grateful for you and the impact you’ve had in my life.
Thank you. I’m humbled and honored. Thank you.
Listeners, thank you so much for joining today and for being a part of this conversation with one of the most influential people in my world. I hope that you learned something. I can’t imagine that you didn’t learn something from this conversation.
And as always, take care of yourself. You are the most important toy in that playroom. Until next time.
