Welcome back to this next episode from the Lessons from the Playroom podcast. For those of you that are able to watch this conversation through video, you’re probably recognizing the person that I have with me as our special guest today. For those of you that are not able to see my special guest, I have with me Dr. Robert Jason Grant. And I am so incredibly excited for this conversation. We’re going to talk all about his work with his creation of Play.
Before we get into that, let me share a little bit about Robert and then Robert will say an official hello to you. So dr. Robert Jason Grant is a licensed Professional counselor.
National Certified Counselor registered Play Therapy Supervisor. He specializes in working with children, adolescents, families and adults, primarily serving neurodivergent, individuals, autism, ADHD, sensory differences, learning disorders and developmental disabilities. You’re the Creator of AutPlay.
As I just mentioned, you are very much an international trainer and keynote speaker. You are a multi. Can I really stress the word multi? Published author of several articles, book chapters.
I’m just going to list some of your books because our listeners may recognize you from that. I know we’ll talk later about where people can find more, but the AutPlay Therapy Handbook, which just come out. Understanding sensory differences, understanding autism, understanding ADHD, implementing play therapy with groups.
Play therapy theories and perspectives. I know I’m not giving the full title, but you’ve written about so many topics, you’ve won so many awards. And what I want to say I was thinking so much about what else I wanted to say in my introduction of you, Robert, and what I found myself wanting to say is that you are truly one of the kindest, most generous and most inclusive.
And when I say inclusive, I mean that on so many levels, in so many different ways of anyone I’ve ever met in this entire field. And truly, you’re just a gem. I was like, he’s just of an individual.
So awesome. So I’m just really grateful you’re here. Oh my gosh, I’m super grateful for that intro.
I just need a recording of that anywhere I’m at. Perfect. That’s so nice and I appreciate it because obviously we all have our BIOS right? We can read.
But I really appreciate that last part because I think it’s nice to feel like, okay, I’m trying to do that. So it seems like maybe I’m being successful on some level or another. So that’s great.
But thank you for having me because I love this podcast and so many people do. It’s such a great podcast. You’ve created so much content that people can access about so many topics, and that’s wonderful.
And like I told you earlier, I love a podcast. I mean, I’ll never say no. Podcast invite.
Yeah, awesome. Well, I really want this podcast to help our listeners understand AutPlay. There may be listeners that are not familiar with AutPlay.
They may not be aware that there is this amazing model that can really be supportive to many of their neurodivergent clients that they work with. So that’s definitely what I want to talk about. But there’s always a story behind the creation of something, and so I would love our listeners to learn a little bit of more about you as well.
Would you share just a little bit of your journey and why this topic is so meaningful to you? Yeah, happy to. So as far as all play and the beginnings of it, it started early in my mental health career, early in my play therapy career, I was working with children and I was definitely drawn to what we would call neurodivergent children. I at that time did not have that language, but I recognized the kids because they reminded me a lot of me when I was a kid.
And so I really like to work with what I kind of referred to them back in that day, was like sort of left of center kids. I remember taking on that title for myself as A-A-I think it was from like a Suzanne Vegas song, she’s saying about being left of center. And it really resonated with me as a kid.
And I’m like, that’s me. I know I’m the left of center kid here. So I really was drawn to these kids in my play therapy work, and I got my first.
What really drove AutPlay forward, the creation of it, was when I got my first child who had really high support needs. He was diagnosed with autism, he was diagnosed with a chromosome disorder, intellectual developmental disability, and I think he had a seizure disorder. There were some medical conditions, and this was opening up a whole new world for me.
I’ve been working with kids with sensory issues, with ADHD, with neurodivergence in a lot of ways, but no one with really high support needs in this collective of things going on. And it was a deep dive with him and his family into this culture as well, where resources were very limited, where mental health care was practically at a zero. Therapists would not take him as a client, and I just really felt a lot of empathy here and felt like this was a call to up my game and be something.
And I loved play therapy, believed in the therapeutic powers of play for all kids, and that there was something there that would benefit him. So it started my journey on what can I do that’s more than what I’m doing? Because that didn’t quite feel like enough. And that was the beginnings of a lot of research, reflection, learning, and putting together what eventually would be the all plate therapy framework.
So I think it was born out of my own feelings and recognition of my own neurodivergence as a child and what I wanted to help kids who I felt like were like me, often reflected on what would have been like if I’d had, like, an Affirming play therapist. I didn’t, but what would that have been like? How could that have been helpful? And then also just honestly kind of like my social justice background, I felt just sort of a need of like, these kids deserve better than what they’re getting. And what they’re getting, I just didn’t really appreciate very much.
And so I think the combination of those two things were really what got me and AutPlay where it’s at today. I’m feeling a lot of appreciation for your client that inspired this or put the questions in you and then just gratitude for the part of you that said, I’m going to look at this because what you’ve been able to bring and provide to so many has just been so amazing through just that’s. Just noticing that as you’re telling your story.
Robert, one of the things that you’ve been talking a lot about lately, which I have been noticing and tracking, because I think it’s so important before we even get into AutPlay, you’re talking a lot and trying to educate people on even what the word neurodivergent even means, right? There’s so much confusion even in Languaging and how people are identified. Can we just take a couple of minutes? And will you educate us on that before we get into what the AutPlay model actually is? Yeah, love to. Because actually, that’s a big part of learning about AutPlay, is always kind of describe it as the framework of a home or building.
And that concrete foundation is the neurodiversity paradigm. So it’s a big part of what people will learn about if they dive into AutPlay and read about it or take the trainings. And it really starts there with the term the neurodiversity paradigm, which basically is a paradigm that has these basic beliefs that neurodiversity exists, that that is a form of diversity.
And we need to understand that. Get that? That. We are not all the same brain and we are not all the same systems.
And it is okay that we are not. And this diversity does exist. So underneath sort of this neurodiversity term, there’s a couple of popular terms neurodivergent, neurotypical that get used a lot.
And really to understand one is to understand the other. So neurotypical is social construct and it’s basically whatever the society culture you’re in has sort of just agreed or understood or been conditioned to think is the way a person should look, talk, process, respond, navigate socially. This is like our list of what that looks like if it’s right, quote, unquote.
And then if you are neurodivergent, you diverge from that. You process, respond, want to navigate socially in a way that’s different. Whatever has been created in this neurotypical structure in this society or culture right now, people probably get most identified as neurodivergent through a diagnosis like autism, sensory differences, learning differences, ADHD, et cetera.
You don’t have to have a diagnosis to be neurodivergent, but that’s a pretty common connection. So that’s what we mean by those terms, just in general. And then we have things like neural minorities which just means, like, underneath being neurodivergent, maybe you’re autistic or maybe you’re an ADHD or maybe you’re an SPD or those would be considered neural minorities because there’s similarities across neurodivergence but there’s also sort of distinct differences for each neural minority.
And then the other big concept is then being neurodiversity affirming, which is the application of all this knowledge. It’s like, how am I going to I agree with this. I agree neurodivergent exists.
I understand the neurodiversity paradigm. But now how do I put it in application with a neurodivergent child in front of me? That’s the being part of neurodiversity affirming? Absolutely. I sort of want to jump into AutPlay because even just the creation of AutPlay is so affirming because I’ve read your handbook, taken some of your courses, and it just so beautifully allows for an awareness that each child is unique and therefore each child deserves their own unique experience in play.
So can we just jump right into that? Talk to us a little bit about AutPlay and yeah, we’ll let you go wherever you want to go with that. Yeah, I love play in some ways. It’s been fluid since its creation.
And I love kind of where we’re at right now because I think it’s the most consistently affirming that it’s ever been. And that’s kind of what we’ve been striving for with AutPlay is this framework that basically displays, helps people learn and understand how to integrate play therapy, theories, approaches, techniques in a way that is neurodiversity affirming to use with neurodivergent children and always try to help people understand. Sometimes I use the term approach kind of as slaying or it just slips out of my mouth because I’m so conditioned to say it.
But AutPlay really isn’t a theory and it really isn’t an approach or a model. It’s a framework. It’s a diversity training at its heart.
So it’s about really understanding how to take what you know of play theory and what you’ve learned. Play therapy, different theories, whatever fits you and integrate and work with addressing the mental health needs of this neurodivergent child in front of you, but making sure that it always rests on that neurodiversity affirming practices and principles. Will you give an example? Yeah, let me think of one that I can give that won’t take a long time.
So when kids first come in to AutPlay, and we do try to work with families and parents as much as we can, if we can work with them. So when a child comes in, the first thing that we do and there are three phases of the AutPlay framework. The first phase being the intake and assessment.
Phase and assessment meaning just getting to know the child, who they are, who is this neurodivergent child in front of you, understanding them, being aware of their strengths along with their needs, et cetera. So the first thing that we’re going to do is really try to get to know this neurodivergent child, how their spectrum of presentation exists, from strengths they have to special interests, to their play preferences, to any mental health issues they have, which might include anxiety, depression, trauma, to how they prefer to communicate. Are they verbal nonverbal? Do they use a device? Would they rather gesture? Do they want to use their words and speak in some kind of verbal way? Do they have any sensory differences? We’re really looking at this whole spectrum of presentation and putting together, okay, I kind of know who this neurodivergent child is in front of me.
And then we always take that information and move into what we put together as therapy goals or a therapy plan, because we want whatever we put together to make sure it stays affirming of the person that we’ve just discovered. Right. So we are not going to create therapy goals and a therapy plan that is trying to devalue their identity or change who they are as a neurodivergent child.
We’re going to put therapy goals together that may be addressing anxiety, that may be addressing trauma, but as we address that, we’re always staying affirming of this child and their identity. And that’s kind of what people learn how to do. The how, I guess, of that in AutPlay and that carries on until we terminate with the child is we always make sure that we’re staying in that mode of operating.
We want to help address the needs of the child. And the mental health needs can be very similar to mental health needs that any child comes into play therapy with. The key difference with AutPlay is that we do understand that neurodivergence is an identity, and we respect that and we honor that.
And so as we’re working on the mental health needs, we are thinking about our process and making sure that everything from the way our playroom is set up to the language we use with the child to the way we communicate a goal to the child to actually the pieces in a specific play therapy technique that it always stays affirming and it doesn’t turn into an ablest process. Yeah. So for someone listening where maybe this is a new consideration, or they’re just like, oh, what would this look like? I’m imagining, for example, a child who has a preference to not speak and not expecting the child to ever say a word in the process, but finding a way to be with them and create play experiences that allow them to be who they are.
And they can speak if they want, and if they don’t want to speak, that’s okay too. Would that be an example just as listeners are listening? Great affirming example. However, this child prefers to communicate.
We’re going to provide space for that instead of labeling that as wrong and then trying to make them look or be the way that we think is the right way. That’s what history has gotten wrong with neurodivergent people and we don’t want to continue to perpetuate. That could also be a play preference.
Right. I mean, I’m very comfortable with the play that the neurodivergent child wants to do that means something to them. If that is pretend play, that’s fine.
And we understand that well, as a play therapist, that would not be a hard sell. But what if it is digital play? That’s their preference. Or what if their preference is all movement based play or constructive play they just want to create with Legos blogs.
We’re going to honor that play preference because that’s another affirming practice. And then that’s part of the consideration for then the play approach that we go into or the integration is this child really has a play preference toward movement play. So we are going to think of interventions to address that anxiety, of that Dysregulation that are movement play interventions.
We are respecting the spectrum of presentation that is this child. What we wouldn’t want to do to that child is go, okay, I understand all that, but I’m going to do all these expressive art interventions with them to try to work on their anxiety. No, send their anxiety through the roof, or even just the most minimal not be as effective as working out of their play preferences.
Right. And just the implied message that you need to be different. Yes, I need you to play in a way that’s comfortable for me.
Yes. And that’s felt right. The child feels that.
Yes, they absolutely do. And we’re in a time where neurodiversity awareness, acceptance, implementation is growing in our culture in the US. Which is wonderful, but by far most of my clients come in to see me and are not going out into their environments experiencing affirming processes.
So not only would they be hearing that message in there with us, that’s what they’re hearing all the time is the way you think, what you desire, what feels right to you is wrong. And I over here have decided I know what’s best for you to think, do, feel and consider the right way. I get that message a lot.
So for sure, let’s be play therapists who counter that. So we know at least there’s one space this child walks into where they can start to feel good about who they are. Beautiful.
Yeah. A question as you’re speaking came up that I actually don’t know the answer to, which is in opt play, in the full training, is there education that gets extended to the play therapist on how to then support the teachers and the educators in the process, or how is that taken into consideration? And I’m saying that just because you and I both know that you just said it right. We might be able to offer an Affirming experience for the child in the playroom, but they may be spending 8 hours at school in the day hearing messages that they don’t fit in or they need to perform or do something different in the classroom.
How is that addressed from an AutPlay lens? Yeah, I’m glad you asked because I think there are a lot of educators and teachers who are very interested in being Affirming. They’re very interested in utilizing therapeutic powers of play in their classrooms, in their work, in the schools. So we get calls about this, actually from them and emails.
So we’re actually currently working on like a handbook to really address more specifically how to implement things in a school or education setting. Right now, educators can take the training. There’s a non mental health version of the training and they can take that and it does apply a little bit more to them and people who are not licensed mental health professionals.
But we’re trying to make that even a little bit more resource driven and helpful for that population because there’s a huge need there. Like you just said, that’s where kids spend so much of their time and there’s such a need for that environment to understand these principles. Huge.
It would be huge if just suddenly we woke up tomorrow and our education system was full on implementing neurodiversity Affirming practices. I mean, there would probably be a lot of kids I wouldn’t see anymore, honestly. And I say that with all due respect because my wife is an educator, a teacher.
I know how hard of a job that is and I know that there are a lot of wonderful teachers out there trying to do their best. But I will say that is probably the most challenging environment for a neurodivergent child and one of the most stress and anxiety producing, sometimes even trauma producing. And it is really the results of that and the accumulative results of that is what actually gets a lot of people to my office because they are really now struggling in a lot of ways.
So thanks for asking. We’re working on making that better. It’s accessible now.
But yeah, we want to do more. Yeah, I was just so curious. You were talking about that.
That’s super cool to hear that there’s something in the works, but what I also heard you say was that teachers and educators, that there is a version that’s already available, so there is a resource as you’re creating more resources and all of that. So this is where my mind is going now in our conversation, because we’re talking about what I’m hearing is that there’s some inner looking that is required on behalf of the therapist in this process to really look at. You haven’t said this, so please correct me if I’m wrong, but this is what I’m sensing that I may need to do some real look about my own biases and my beliefs and my own expectations and my own processes when I even think about stepping into being more affirming.
Will you speak to that? Because I imagine that that’s a big piece of the work. Will you speak to that a little bit? Yeah, it’s so cool that you bring that up, because we did not talk about this ahead of time. It’s so cool that you bring that up, because I do bring this up sometimes in trainings.
I love play therapy interventions. I love playroom set up. I love resources.
As a neurodivergent person myself, there was a time in my life where strategies and tips and tools were very useful to me. But absolutely, they will always fall short if you cannot affirm the identity first of the neurodivergent child. And that does require some self examination and awareness of where we may have some of our own ableist ideas, and then those come out of us, maybe even just in subtle ways that we’re not even recognizing.
Right. And we also have to keep in mind that, I guess up until what I would call the current version of AutPlay, if you will, and it’s a framework even not a theory. We don’t have a play therapy or mental health theory that was created for neurodivergent children with affirming principles in mind.
Play therapy in general, I would say, is affirming of children does a really good job of that. So you got to take it a step further to be affirming of neurodivergent children, because ableist practices and ideas I see as very well conditioned. So you might not even know that there’s something there that is coming out of you and onto the child or that is in one of your favorite play therapy theories or techniques.
So absolutely that’s step number one is really that self examination. Why do I think this should be a goal for this child, and where is that thought coming from inside of me? Where did that originate and is it inherently true? I think it’s just really stopping and questioning instead of just kind of going with maybe what you’ve always thought it’s questioning. Where did you learn that and why do you think that way.
And then if you know what neurodiversity is, does it match up to that? When you hold it up to that scrutiny, does it pass the neurodiversity affirming test or not? Right. So I appreciate you asking that, because I think that is an important work and it’s something that very much goes along with learning about theories and techniques and approaches of play therapy because you’re there in that room implementing those things. So who you are and what you’re communicating to that child is going to be huge.
I have this phrase, I say it’s my favorite quote of myself, my favorite quote of myself. Now, I have to paraphrase I can’t remember exactly, but it basically goes, a neurodivergent child is going to be a neurodivergent person their whole life. What they think about being neurodivergent is going to have a considerable effect on their mental health.
So in AutPlay, there’s always a serious look at whatever else we’re working on, and it could be a whole host of mental health needs. Whatever else we’re working on, we’re probably always going to have some therapy goals around empowerment, understanding, identity, and also advocacy. Because again, this person is always going to be neurodivergent.
What they think about themselves as a neurodivergent person is going to have a massive effect on their mental health. Huge. Yeah.
Robert, this is a beautiful conversation. My guess is that there are listeners that are feeling inspired to go learn more. Will you direct them? Where do you want them to go check you out? Definitely.
Probably the go to source is the AutPlay website, which is AutPlaytherapy.com all the trainings are there that people can access from in person, ones that maybe we’re traveling around doing supervision, consultation, home study courses are all on the website. Plus just free materials and resources that can be used for AutPlay, including some free trainings that are there.
And then there’s a little store page that will direct people to where they can purchase play books and the other books that you mentioned. The new book, The AutPlay Therapy Handbook, is a really thorough volume of really explaining everything that we are talking about today and more. So that’s a great easy resource to grab and give yourself a weekend and go through it.
So it’s just really easy to go to the website. We have social media presence on Facebook and things like this, but obviously everything can be accessed via the website. Awesome.
As we start to wrap up here, do you have a final thought or a oh, no, there’s this last thing that I want. Yes, several. But I just think that what I would want, especially any mental health professional or for sure play therapist or aspiring play therapist, to understand is that there’s a huge need for neurodivergent kids to be able to access child therapy and to really be able to go someplace where they can get help with the mental health needs that they have.
And it’s so important that we try to meet that need and that we really understand that we’re going to be an Affirming therapist as we meet that need. So I just want child and play therapists to go learn. There are other places to learn some of these things besides all play therapy.
I just want them to go learn and then open up their playrooms to these kids and really be dedicated to Affirming practices. This is going to be huge if that is done for so many neurodivergent kids. They’re going to be, by any definition of how we define it, so much healthier as a result of experience, something like that.
So if you’re watching and people may be watching this, who have not dived into that world, they do not understand it. Maybe they are one of those people are like, why this don’t work with those kids? I just want them to really kind of contemplate on what I just said and think about it. Yeah.
Robert I have had the thought many times that no matter what foundational training someone has in play, whatever whatever the theory is I have had the thought many times that AutPlay should be an added on requirement for someone’s play therapy training because it’s just a significant piece of the whole ability to be able to be of service to kids. That’s awesome. Thanks, Lisa.
You’ve created and put something incredibly important into the world. So on behalf of all of us, the clinicians, and on behalf of all the kids that are receiving support and have received support because of what you’ve put out there, thank you. Well, thank you.
I appreciate that. Yeah. Okay, listeners, I’ll say my favorite quote, your own favorite quote of yourself.
Favorite quote that I end every podcast with. You’re the most important toy in the playroom. So take care of yourselves, everyone, until next time.
